NPC Wings

[Eimi]

I don't necessary want to stir anything more up here, but I did feel I should address the issue of the Council being slow in replies and losing some requests.

That is admittedly our greatest flaw, and the Council knows that is our fault.  It was never done intentionally, and no individual's messages were misplaced more often than anyone elses.  I could see how it might be taken as a personal slight, though, and for that we apologize wholeheartedly.  

The problem hasn't been that we don't have somewhere to save all of these messages.  We have every single message sent to the Council saved from the last three years at least.  The problem has been that the open issues have a tendancy to pile up one on top of the other, in which case things get lost.  Often what happens is that we start working on something, but another issue that we feel is more immediate comes up and we switch gears to that topic and the other gets shoved back down the list.  This is something we know we need to work on.  But this is also why we invite you to send us a quick mail if you haven't heard back from us in a week and ask if there's any progress.  Chances are something else came up and your request was pushed down the line.  If you send us a reminder, that usually shoots it back up to the top again, or we usually try to at least give you an update on where are.  

As of yesterday morning, the Council had 34 open topics of discussion and issues that needed to be addressed.  We're making a strong effort to bring that number down to a more managable level because we think that will help us address your questions and issues much quicker than we have been.  Now we're down to 22, but we still have a ways to go.  So we would ask for your patience, and that if there is anything you feel we have lost in the pile, please feel free to send us a nudge and ask how things are going on that.

Again, we are sorry if anyone was offended by our slow response.  We never meant it to be taken personally, and we will work hard to try to answer everyone's messages in a more timely manner, and we would ask your help in sending us gentle reminders if you feel something has been misplaced.

[Cali]

Since there doesn't appear to be a clear cut preference I thought I'd explain why I voted against the forming of another PC wing in case this goes to the council for discussion.  
1. What's the point?  A third wing isn't any more realistic than 2.  There would still be a need to mention more wings at the Weyr.  
2. We can't get enough people interested in actively playing the L2's we have now, we don't need more to be left unused or unwanted.
3.  This whole thing has killed the reason for the question.  The post we were wanting to use the NPC wingleaders/wing names for is going to sound supid and unrealistic with a Weyrlingmaster splitting a class of 40 weyrlings into TWO or even THREE Wings (even if a third of them are too young).  So I'm not going the write the post.

[Cali]

EDIT: just one more quick note... In reference to what Cali said before about Todd saying there are 9-12 wings, please keep in mind that nothing that Todd McCafferey has ever said or written has been incorporated into Triad Canon except for his chapter on Dragonrider Training in the DLGP.  Not saying I agree or disagree with the numbers, I just want to make sure there's no confusion there.  If you want to know what IS included in canon, please look here: http://www.triadweyrs.org/faq.php?fq_id=488

Just for clarification, from the Training and Fighting Dragons section of the DLG on page 58 of the second edition.  

"The fighting strength of the Weyr varies, with the high being some 330 fighting dragons..."
"A Weyrleader counts himself lucky to have nine good Wings of reasonable strength and some spare riders to make up for losses; his worries begin only when he reaches the inevitable point where he cannot make nine wings with a scant twelve dragons each."
"In good times a Wing contains thirty dragons.  Twelve is the smallest working Wing a Weyrleader will normally permit to fly."
"Three Wings are considered the smallest number that can successfully fight a Threadfall"

************

So, a wing is between 12-30 dragons.  Three fighting wings can win a Threadfall, Two and we're all dead.  330 dragons is a full Weyr and at 30 dragons that's 11 wings.  A good/normal wing allowment is 9.  

Since we all realize that the Weyrs in Triad aren't at full strength, let's do some numbers.  90 dragons would be the min and 330 the max... half way in between would be 210.  If we assume that 210 is the average of what the Triad weyrs have and they have full wings of 30, then that's 7 wings the Weyrs should have.  Even if the numbers are lower, that's 6 wings for each weyr, not counting the queens wing.  

These numbers are of course subjective, but they make alot more sense than three wings... that would only be 90 fighting dragons in the Weyr.  In fact, the Sr. Weyrling class could make up an entire wing all by itself which would leave only 60 or so adult fighting dragons in the Weyr at the time of the Sr. graduation.

[Bree]

I joined this club for the first time in 2001.  The Council imploded 5 months later and in the mess that followed one owner was ejected. I got dragged into the chaos and left shortly after.

I joined the club again in 2002.  The Council imploded 6 months later, and in the mess that followed one owner was ejected. I was used as the excuse for her being kicked out, and was encouraged to leave shortly after.  

In 2003 I wasn't even in the club.  The Council imploded. One of the owners was ejected.  (Hey, are we sensing a theme yet?  For anyone who's been around a really long time, just think back to 2000.  Some of you might remember that very same thing happening then, too.)  

In 2004 I rejoined the club.  Again.  Sometimes I never learn, but Triad seemed like a special place.  What can I say...I loved it.  Except it was struggling a little, possibly because all of the original owners had been kicked out by this point.  I took on some administrative duties.  Then more.  Then more.  I tried.  Sometimes I screwed up.  

In 2005, the only remaining owner of the club lost interest.  Emma and Clancey were trying to help out.  I recruited Eimi and Dana, barely out of mentorship, and pretty much forced them to learn the ropes as fast as humanly possible.  They had no idea what was going on and they worked 20, 30, 40 hour weeks trying to learn.  It was insane.  They were insane.  I was freaking nutballs, because this was a game, not a life calling.

But we learned.  And we tried.  And in 2006, 2007, 2008 & 2009, the Council didn't implode.  Sometimes we fought with each other.  (Sorry, Eimi...I know you say we disagree, but here I'm going to disagree...sometimes we fought.)  Sometimes we were passionate in standing up for an idea or standing against it.  But the one thing we all agreed on, time and time again, no matter how very, very upset, hurt or angry someone made us: this club is not going to be the place where members are ejected unless they attack other members.

It turns out that's not the most comfortable rule in the world to follow.  When we were especially behind in our admin work I got to watch people I liked and respected picking us into little pieces on livejournal.  I had to pretend I didn't see it, because every member has the right to hate us, to complain about us, and to think we suck at everything and anything.

There is only one right I am reserving for the Council, and that is the right to go about their daily business on this forum without being dogpiled.  Because when I see a request for a place where people can express discontent while getting support, what I see is the past.  Mob mentality ruling the club and turning us into what we have struggled so hard to get away from: the club that implodes every year in such a spectacular fashion people stock up on popcorn just to watch it.

At the end of the day, you can agree with how we run things or you can disagree.  And if you disagree, you can decide what you want to do.  Pern fandom has a long running tradition in cases such as these: when you're convinced the council sucks and you could do it better, then do it.  Do it better.  Do it different.  Do it faster, cooler, nicer, less tyrant-y, less strict and hey, with all the NPC wings you want.  You'll have to do it with your own website and forums and associated headaches, but the option is yours.

No one will hate you.  No one will hex you or wish you ill.  But the council is not going to change the way they're running things.  They'll try to be faster, more efficient and understanding, but they won't be everything you want. They never will.

But they'll also not implode and kick you out, not for disagreeing, not for insulting them, not even for telling them you think they suck.  And in the grand scheme of internet clubs, you might be surprised how rare that is.

And that is all this tired webmonkey has to say.

[Paula]

:hello1:

[Jane]

:geek:  I'll admit to owning the sash that says 'Miss Kicked-Out-in-2000'.

[Clancey]

::gives Bree a standing ovation:::: thanks lady.   We love you, you know.   Cranky darn webmonkey.  

Haha! Jane! I didn't know that!   ::claps::

Hey Cali, though I hear what you're saying, and you're right, you need a full Weyr to fight Thread, in the 6 years (whoo hoo, yeah I saw the tailend of one implosion and lived through another!)  I've been here, we've always "assumed" the Weyrs are at full fighting strength.   Unless, like in DCW's case, they've had IC tragedies that definitely took away riders like O'dan (when Bree was eeeeeeeeeeeevil LOL) and the Hurricane.   Those are IC reasons to assume their strength is down.   Or like at DFW when we had no Hatchings for like... 12 months?! or longer?  

We just don't often talk about anybody but the PCs.   In fact, thats a common question about male greenriders.  We do assume there are way more male greenriders in the Weyrs than get talked about.  We seem to have a fetish here for female greenriders, though I'm seeing more and more of the male types as PCs yahoo!  

There isn't anything wrong with continuing that tradition.  Clearly a Weyr needs more than 90 dragons, so we assume they all do have more than 90.  We just don't talk about them... So...we take some... creative license?  Thats my story and Im stickin' to it !

Side note, when I was WLM at DCW I wrote posts doing the "choosing of the Wings".   I did it with just the PC Wingleaders I had and the PC weyrlings I had and it seemed to work out fine.  At least I think it did  I'd be glad to help if you think I'd be useful

Just some food for your thought!

[Bree]

:geek:  I'll admit to owning the sash that says 'Miss Kicked-Out-in-2000'.

And it looks so pretty with your hat!   :king:

Triad's never going to be perfect, and the Council is never going to be perfect.  But one thing I do want to emphasize is something Eimi said that might have gotten lost in the shuffle: the voice of 5 people or 10 people is not more important than the voice of 1.  But if you do really strongly feel that five or ten of you share an opinion...you have an option.  Do what the Council does.  Compose a letter together that you're all willing to stand behind, and sign it with your names.  

And remember something else: we can all disagree and fight and make faces at each other, but we're all (mostly) grown up too.  Which means when we're done making faces, fighting, and throwing stuff...we can get back to having a good time.  

 

[Amanda N]

Do I get a sash too?  I got kicked out. :-D

[Devin]

I never intended my comments to be anything close to "omg teh Council sucks and you're all mean and I hate you!" But seconding Cali's post seemed to be taken as if it were a challenge, and I really did not appreciate the tone of the response ("if that's not good enough  ...")

Maybe the Council has been challenged and attacked so many times that they automatically put their guard up when someone disagrees. I didn't know that you couldn't disagree with the Council on the forums (especially in the sense of 'this was not the direction we intended our question to take'), and I think it's little hypocritical to publicly scold someone for not talking about an issue privately.

That being said, I think the Council does an amazing job. All the little details that go into running this club are mindblowing, and they do it all while dealing with real life, LOAs, technical problems, and on and on. I think that some of the problems that have been mentioned or hinted at are not because the Council is doing a BAD job, it's a perception issue. I'm not sure what can be done to ease that, because perception is a hard issue to address, especially over the internet.

I certainly don't think there should be a forum for "ganging up" on the Council, but maybe the regular members could discuss things on the forums in a preliminary way before formally asking the Council something? I think people have a need to feel more involved in the process. We understand it's not majority rules, the Council makes the final decision about what's best for the club. Since it's been years since there was a major problem and the club is going strong, I think that proves the Council is doing a damn fine job.

I wish I knew how to fix the perception issue.

[Amanda N]

Well spoken, Becki.  

I think part of the problem with the perception issue is that all this is written word.  There is no voice inflection, no body language to accompany it, so a lot can be read into it and a lot can be taken the wrong way.  This seems to happen often, not just here but in other venues as well.  I think it's good to remember that not everything said or done is a personal attack.

[Jane]

In December 2006 I emailed this suggestion to the Council:

A Suggestion: New Forum - Pern, Triad, Canon, Fanon & Opinion

Yeah, catchy title! <g>

My thought is that the forums have the Member Inquiries which are really
just questions for the council (well, council and L1) hence:

  viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1282

which forbids others answering questions and this:

  viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2831

which directs people _away_ from Triad to get general discussion the
council is too busy to deal with but warns that the responses might not
be applicable to this club.

I think the forums and the club would benefit from having an area where
discussion and questions can be dealt with in general by everybody.

Here's a classic example of one we all could have gnawed away at for
months but wasn't suitable for the Member Inquiries forum which is
asking for council response:

  viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2820

A new forum (or more than one) would give me a place to ask about
showers v. baths.  Does the council really want to answer this for me?
And sewage?  I'm certainly interested and think it would encourage a
sense of community (and critical thinking) to discuss it while still
leaving the council the option of saying 'We'll lock this until we've
decided on it and let you know' or letting a discussion run and at the
end saying 'Xxx, could you write this up for the FAQ?'

Why send Triad people away to other websites when they can stay and
discuss Triad canon/fanon here, or canon or the books in general?

Right now we just have admin, posting, social, and awards sections on
the forums, but I think we need one covering canon - both Pern and Triad.


Jane
in NZ

I still think it has merit.  I like the idea of us chewing over fanon, canon, and vital questions about what each of us thinks the taps in the showers at RBW look like.

[Eimi]

All right, I'm going to be honest with you guys right now.  Since this whole topic started, there hasn't been a single day when I haven't had to convince myself not to just walk away from this club for good.  Seriously, I have been this close every single day.  I am so tired of all of this.  I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on the Council feeling this way.  I tried to promise to do our job better.  It tried to make compromises for you guys.  And nothing I or the Council seems to be good enough.  This whole topic has felt like one wave of an attack after another, whether it was intended that way or not.  We've had to deal with it the same way no matter what the intentions behind it were, and I am exhausted.  You guys just don't know when enough is enough.  I am throwing up my hands with you guys, 'cause otherwise I am throwing in the towel.  I am just too tired of having to talk myself back off the ledge.

Emotions are running too high right now, especially on the battle-fatigued Council side.  Maybe we can revisit this idea in a couple months when things have calmed down, but for now, like it or not, this discussion is over.  You guys have two options - 1) you can go off into your respective corners and discuss who is going to form the Council for your own new club elsewhere, and you can go with our blessing and good wishes or 2) go back to coposting and enjoying this club as flawed and imperfect as it is and let us get back to doing our job.  

And Jane, if I weren't so pissed at the moment, I would probably be open to your idea, but I am just too touchy on this whole subject to give it the attention it deserves.  Ask again in a couple months.

[Bree]

Do I get a sash too?  I got kicked out. :-D

Of course! Sashes and crowns and beer all around!    :king:

I'd love to see this rest for a bit, for everyone's sake.  There comes a point where you are so sick of it there's no way to be rational.  If you guys want to continue thinking, I think y'all are internet savvy enough to find a way to discuss it without us setting up a place for you to do it.  After all, I'm pretty sure y'all know each other's e-mail addresses.