NPC Wings

[Eimi]

Hello again Triadians!

The Council has thought very carefully about the discussions that were going on about having NPC wings in each Weyr.  We know that many people are very excited about the idea, and we love to see your enthusiasm!  But, with the new NPC rule that is going into effect, it just raised too many questions about the administrative logistics, such as, if a player from an NPC wing needed to become a PC, where would they go?  We're not, however, opposed to the idea of opening a new PC wing in each Weyr if there is enough interest and if we can find three members who would be willing to serve as Wingleaders.  Again, we know that it's not exactly what you wanted, but we hope that it would be a compromise that would suit your needs.  And of course, in the event that we open new PC wings, we would take name suggestions from members and probably post a poll for you to choose your favorites.  Some of the names thrown out are quite good!

So if you could please answer the poll and let us know what you think, we can go from there!

Thanks!

Eimi
On Behalf of the Council

NOTE: we will finish the poll May 15th so people who are LOA/LIA have a chance to weigh in

[Cali]

Well, in answer to the "where would they go" question, wouldn't it just be simple enough to say that if you want to make a rider PC they have to be in one of the PC wings.... they would just have to transfer from an NPC wing.  If the Weyrleader's writer was the only person who could NPC the NPC Wingleaders, then that would solve the issue of controlling the NPC wings.  I think this is just a bit overblown.  The discussion wasn't about wanting to expand the wings in PCdom, it was just to make it more realistic when the Weyrlingmaster, Weyrleader, and Wingleaders sit around to discuss the Sr. Weyrlings.  Acting like there are only 2 wings is impractical (really 3 isn't much better, Todd talks about how there are 9-12 in a full Weyr I believe), but they only need to be peripheral and occassionally mentioned.  We have a hard enough time as it is filling up with wing positions we have.

[Eimi]

Trust me, Cali, the Council had a long discussion.  First of all, let me clear up a quick misconception - if there ever were to be an NPC wing, the Weyrleader of that Weyr would not have been able to write for the Wingleaders of it, nor have any control over it's history or direction.  They would be Council owned positions, just like all other NPC locations.  And it wasn't the Weyrleader/Wingleader/Weyrlingmaster/Sr.Weyrling post that we felt might create issues, it was other posts and NPCs that would require way too much monitoring, especially given the new NPC rules.  We discussed it at length, and felt this was the better way to go at this time.

[Devin]

I second what Cali said.

[Eimi]

I second what Cali said.

You and Cali are both entitled to your opinions, but the Council has already discussed it and came to a decision.  We understand what you guys wanted and why, and we have tried to offer you a compromise rather than saying "no" flat out.  If you don't want we offered than vote "no".  If you accept the compromise then vote "yes".  I'm sorry if it isn't the decision you would have come to, but it is the decision we came to.  Whenever possible we try to give you guys what you want, and when we can't, we try to give you at least something.  If that's not good enough, I'm sorry, but it's the best we can do.   The Council will not be discussing it any more except in light of the outcome of the vote.


EDIT: just one more quick note... In reference to what Cali said before about Todd saying there are 9-12 wings, please keep in mind that nothing that Todd McCafferey has ever said or written has been incorporated into Triad Canon except for his chapter on Dragonrider Training in the DLGP.  Not saying I agree or disagree with the numbers, I just want to make sure there's no confusion there.  If you want to know what IS included in canon, please look here: http://www.triadweyrs.org/faq.php?fq_id=488

[Devin]

You and Cali are both entitled to your opinions,

And I was expressing my opinion, which is that I agree with what Cali said. I disagree with the direction the Council took this in. I did not ask them to change their minds. I did not ask them to discuss the issue again.

I expressed my opinion, and that is ALL I did.

[Eimi]

I understand that.  As I said, you are entiled to your opinion.  But Cali expressed her opinion, I explained our position, and that should have been the end of it on the forums.

Let's remember that the forums are a public area.  People come here to socialize, to discuss things, to share ideas.  It should a place were people enjoy visiting.  Disagreements do not belong here.  That has always been our policy.  I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't express your opinions.  Sometimes it's healthy to tell someone you disagree with something they have said or decided, but you need to go to them directly, not put it up here.  That has always been the policy because it tends to drag others in and makes people feel uncomfortable.  Under this current Council, no one has ever been punished in any way for expressing a dissenting opinion.  We understand that sometimes the decisions we make are not ones you may agree with, and we invite you to express your opinion to us in a politely worded e-mail, and we will try to explain to you why we made the choice we did.  In the end you may or may not understand our position, but we will not punish you for telling us that you think we were wrong.  But please tell us directly.  The forums are for EVERYONE.  

Usually when it seems a discussion is going in an uncomfortable direction we lock down the thread and end the discussion before it can go too far, but I don't want to close off the poll since some people might still want to vote.  So I would just ask that if anyone else wants to express an opinion, please feel free to contact the Council directly.

[Cali]

Might I suggest a section on the forum where we can talk to the council in an open manner and others can comment with agreements or disagreements on the subject?  That way people don't have to look if it will upset them, but it will also be more fair to someone who wants to express an opinion.  You as the council might not realize how intimidating "the council" is to people.  When someone sends a message of disagreement to "the council" it's pretty much the 1 person against 5.  Those 5 hide behind their little admin section and discuss a situation between themselves and then tell the 1 person what the law is.  The 1 person feels utterly alone and isolated against a large mass of power.  It can be very disheartening as well as isolating.  

I'm not saying the council is doing this on purpose, but that is the way it is sometimes interpereted by many people here at Triad, and this might be a good way of relieving some of that discontent that is rampantly growing in this community.

[Amanda N]

I have to agree with Cali.  I have felt very intimidated in the past.  I thought the forum was one of the ways that we could communicate with the Council.  If we have a specific section for that, it would help ease that intimidation and others could see topics that have been discussed in the past and the various resolutions.

[Eimi]

I can understand what you guys are saying.  I started out on the other side of the curtain too.  I know that it can seem that there's "The Council" and "Us", and trust me, it's as frustrating for us as it is for all of you.  But there is a reason why there is a curtain.

The Council is made up of a small group of people with a good grasp of canon, administrative skills, and an understanding of club history, both in the timeline and out of character.  We're a team made up of people who work well together, which is probably the most important thing.  In Council fighting used to plague this club and spill over into the members as well.  A few of you, I'm sure, remember that time.  It was also a time when if you disagreed with the Council, you were most likely going to be kicked out of the club.  I am very proud to say that this Council has never kicked a member out.  There was a time when the Council would give special privileges to the people they liked and punish those they didn't.  I am proud to say that no one has been singled out for either rewards or punishment since this Council was put in place.  In fact we go to great lengths to ensure that doesn't happen.  If we are hard on anyone, it's on ourselves.  There were numerous times when drama and in-fighting nearly ripped this club apart.  I am proud of the fact that in the last four years, when drama did spring up, it was resolved quickly and peacefully ,and the club could keep going without missing a step.  There was a time when you SHOULD have been intimidated and afraid of going to the Council with questions and complaints, but that has never been this Council.

You don't like that we have our little secret admin location that we can see but no one else can.  It didn't used to be on the forums.  It used to be all done by e-mail.  There were a few occassions where something was accidentally sent to the main list rather than the Council list, which caused hurt and embarrassment for the Council and some of the members.  Members could get a glimpse of what was happening behind the curtain, and it wasn't always pretty.  That's why it was moved to the forums - to ensure that it never happened again.  Who wants everyone to hear that they are on probation?  Or that the Council feels they're not ready for a ranker?  Or that they made a serious lapse in canon that needed to be corrected?  Who wants everyone to hear that they have submitted an idea for a story that is so very far off canon that nothing from it is workable, and have everyone watch as it gets ripped to shreds?  Who wants to have everyone hear that their mentorship is going slowly and it might be a while before they're released?  Who wants everyone to know that their persona sheet is unacceptable and just plain bad?  NONE of that belongs on the public forums in my opinion, and I think you would agree.

There's another reason why the admin section is secret.  The Council is made of up of five members.  I think people tend to forget that.  They see it as a unit, but it's not.  It's individuals who have bad days, who get offended, who take things the wrong way, who over react, who get frustrated sometimes.  We need that secret place where we can go and vent and complain and say exactly what is on our mind so that cooler heads can prevail.  We need that place to discuss and to look at the issue from all sides.  And we have a very good group of people.  We work very well together, which is essential.  We don't always agree with each other, but we never fight.  We don't always see an issue the same way, but we can compromise and come to a consensus.  It can be messy sometimes, but in the end, we come to a resolution we can all agree on.  And then we present our decision to you as a united body.  We work VERY hard to make sure that our responses to you are politic and gentle.  We submit draft after draft sometimes, checking and rechecking to make sure that nothing we say can be deemed hurtful, accussing, or angry towards our members.  We try at all times to be respectful, and to present constructive ideas and praise.  We do that to try to make sure that any contact you have with the Council is a positive experience.  I was always very proud of the measures we took to ensure there were no hard feelings and that we took our members feelings into account.  But I have to admit, now I feel rather discouraged to know that dispite that, we still seem unapproachable.  We're obviously failing there somewhere, though where, I'm not sure.

This Council has always worked hard to ensure that the only thing our members have to worry about it writing, co-posting, making friends and enjoying their experience.  We ask nothing more of our members than that.  Anything above that - welcoming committee, admin duties, mentoring - you get "salaries" for.  Council members don't even get that.  We pay for the club, we mentor members, we maintain the website, we monitor the forums to make sure all questions are answered and all members have a positive experience, we monitor the list to be sure nothing inappropriet is sent to it and everything fits within the ground rules laid out, we uphold and clarify the canon (after all this club is MEANT to be a strict canon club and so therefore we are SUPPOSED to be strict with the canon), we do regular maintainance of the list in the form of Roll Calls, we give everyone a chance to give positive feedback to each other through the Crayon Awards, we constantly update the FAQ, we approve personas to ensure they fit into our club and are ready to be played, we think of ways we can make life easier for everyone...  The list could go on and on.  And we do all of that for nothing.  We get very little credit, and a whole lot of criticism and nit picking, and we never complain because we accepted that this is our role in this club.  I could be replying to coposts and enjoying all of you right now, but instead I'm replying to this message, and after this I have 11 PA sheets I have to look at, and I have some Council questions to look at, the faq to update, etc...  And somewhere in there I have my ACTUAL job to do and a life to live...  But I don't mind doing all that, because I do it so you don't have to.  We do all that so all you guys have to do is think about coposting and enjoying each other.  I accept that you guys feel we are failing you somehow, but I honestly don't know where.

We didn't give you the answer you wanted to hear for the NPC wings.  I know that.  And for you guys, all you see is that it was a simple little issue.  That's how it is SUPPOSED to be for you.  But when I looked at that issue, I saw even more work for the Council.  I saw potential problems in the system from an administrative point of view.  And I will admit to you right now, I voted against NPC wings for very selfish reasons - I didn't want the headache.  I have enough I have to do. I know I tried to find a compromise for you.  I know I tried to find something to soften the blow.   Maybe it is a little self-centered, but I thought that I deserved a little consideration too.  I thought I work hard enough that I deserve the right to vote against something that could potentially add to my list of things to do today.  Am I wrong?  Maybe I am.  I don't know.  

You want a place on the forums where you can openly discuss things with the Council.  Well, I can tell you right now, it wouldn't change anything.  The Council is made up of individuals, but we still have to come to a consensus in our decisions.  So you can ask your questions on the forum, but we will still have to discuss it "behind close doors" before we give you our answer.  So it will still be you asking the question and then the Council telling you our decision.  And you can agree, disagree, tell us what a terrible job we're doing, rant and rave...  what would that accomplish?  Hard feelings on both sides?  Is that really what is best for this club?

We want you to enjoy this club.  We want you to make friends and have fun.  We don't mind if we can't always be part of it.  We accept that our role is to be just "The Council".  We accept that you might want to tell us all the ways we're not doing our job, and we'll keep doing our job and making sure you have a place to write and have fun, and we'll play the bad guy so everything continues running smoothly.  And we'll accept that you'll want to send us e-mails from time to time to tell us how bad of a job we're going, how we're not doing things your way, how we've failed you...  All that we ask is that you give us a little privacy when you do it.  I really don't think that's too much, is it?

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have a lot of work I have to do.

[Amanda N]

I don't think the issue is that we want to be able to see the private Council forums.  I think it's more that it would be nice to have a place to voice our concerns where other people can see it and pipe in agreement if they agree, or even in disagreement if they don't.  Somewhere where we wouldn't feel like we were alone, one against five.  

In addition, when a person sends an email to the Council, that's just one person and the members of the Council may not have an idea of how well supported (or unsupported) the idea or issues in the email is.  A forum would enable the Council to see how well supported or unsupported an idea is.  Of course, this would only be in regards to issues that affect the club as a whole, not individual issues.  

I know you said having such a forum might bring things down, but if posts are done in a constructive manner, that wouldn't be the case.  The same rules would apply as they would to other forums in terms of politeness.  Those who break the rules would then suffer the same consequences as they would on the other forums.  

Am I making sense?

[Eimi]

I think you are making sense, Amanda.  The problem, though, is what you're saying is actually getting to the heart of the problem.

You're saying that you want a forum to discuss things so you don't feel so intimidated to talk to the council, that it's intimidating with the "1 against 5" ratio.  I'm starting to get the fact that the problem isn't with the Council.  The problem is with the individual.  For the Council, it has never been and never will be "us against them".  We never saw this as a competition or a fight.  It seems that you and some other members are feeling that it is "us against the Council".  It has never mattered to the Council if it was one member or fifty that asked us for something, if it was possible to give it to them and if it wasn't against the best interests of the club, we gave it to them.  It has never mattered if they came to us alone or as a whole.  We treat all questions, requests and ideas equally.  A forum won't change that policy.  I'm not sure a forum can even TOUCH that problem.  That's more a personal problem.  Not to say personal only pertaining to you, I mean, it sounds like some members have turned the Council into a "boogieman" in their own minds, and I can imagine perfectly how that idea has spread from one to the next behind the scenes.  I'm not sure where that comes from, but it sounds like that's the real problem.  I think a forum in fact would perpetuate that problem more than solve it.  If you want to fix this problem, we need to get to the root of THAT problem, because if you're coming into this with a "me against the Council" mentality, the problem isn't with us, the problem is with how you've created us in your own mind.  I mean really, what do you think we can do besides tell you that we disagree?  Do you think we'll kick you out?  Do you think we'll take away your rankers?  Do you think we'll hold you back somehow?  Have we EVER done anything like that to ANYONE?

[Amanda N]

As long as I've been here, I've not seen anyone get kicked out.  However, I have seen requests get lost, requests be unanswered, issues brought up and unresolved a year later.  Some replies that have been received contained a certain passive aggressiveness that has been rather disconcerting.  

Yes, I  know no one gets paid to do this, but responsibilities were taken on willingly.  I understand that everyone has things happen, there is more beyond this club, but at the same time when we sign up for this club we have all made a certain commitment to it.  I feel like a lot of issues are getting pushed to the side.  Important things aren't being addressed and making things worse.  People sign up to join and then move away.  Part of it may be that they don't like the strict canon, but I think some of it has to do with the issues that are not being addressed in the club.  

Perhaps there is so much email going around that the issues are getting lost.  Having a forum for such things would keep them in one place where it would be easy to refer to over and over.

Also, while I understand that doing wings the way that others suggested, simply explaining why the council decided not to go that route might have been taken with less frustration than the option provided.  Perhaps an explanation and then an invitation to make other suggestions?  

I understand your lives are busy, things happen, good and bad.  I have offered my help multiple times in the past and am still more than willing to assist the Council in anyway I possibly can.  If things are so hard, please let me and any other willing members help.  We WANT to help.

[Chelle]

Have no idea about the NPC wing issue... and I think everyone's making sense..

Just wanted to say that I was here when the Council *was* wacko. And indeed, I was almost forced to leave once because of it. So yes, you all have it very good indeed. Believe me ;)

*casts vote*

[Paula]

Have no idea about the NPC wing issue... and I think everyone's making sense..

Just wanted to say that I was here when the Council *was* wacko. And indeed, I was almost forced to leave once because of it. So yes, you all have it very good indeed. Believe me ;)

So if you want to hear horror stories, privately email me. umhm.

*casts vote*

Same here Chelle, I've been member for very long time. I think this discussion should be whistled out. Let's just write co-posts and enjoy reading them.  :sunny: