Let's Debate Pernese--the role of women

[Len]

Okay ladies, it's occurred to me that there are a few forums out there just for Pernand talk about different aspects of Pern, but we at Triads never debate the pros and cons of our canon, and what should and should not be canon.

So let's start with the role of women at our site: is it something you like? Could there be changes made (i.e. female blueriders, more golds, a stronger role for the Hold Lady, a female Craft Master, a sense that conservative Holders are becoming more relaxed)? What do you all think? :-)

[Avery]

Ooh, I think this is a great topic!

Sometimes I as a person am bothered by the limited roles available to Triad's women, but I also think that as a writer it's a really interesting scenario to play with. And I also have to remember  that not every location within the setting is that restrictive. Each area has their own subtle variances, which means there's room to play around. For example, Sunstone people are more conservative, but some holders at Emerald Falls are a little more open. Two of the PC Halls are conservative and female-banned, but two are not.



-Female Craft Masters: I think it's doable. Technically Harper or Dolphineer can have females in the Hallmaster, Hallsecond, or Master of Apprentice positions. After all, those crafts are open to women. So if any of those spots came open, I think someone could apply for it.

-Female blueriders: I really like them in other games and I'm happy Todd made them canon because it's never made sense to me that gay men can Impress but gay women can't. I think it would be really disruptive given the female-repressed timeline to have it happen in Triad so I think I'd be against introducing them because of how ugly a lot of the backlash could get. If we're talking about relaxing sexuality impressions slightly, I have never understood why female greenriders can't be bisexual (they'd still be able to be comfortable with being with a man in their mating flights, but they could have female love interests outside of that.)

-More golds: Do you mean more PC goldriders or more queens mentioned to be at the weyrs?

-An expanded role for Hold Ladies: I think this is another case of "depends on the Hold". Some Lord Holders might allow their women to be full partners with them and encourage it, and others might demand nothing but a silent trophy. Heck, some Ladies might be running the Holds in truth with a male mouthpiece husband! Just because we don't have it actively played out doesn't mean it's not possible in the scenario.

[Chelle]

Honestly...I've played a female bluerider before at another club but I sort of like that Triad is more traditional. Yes it limits the amount of female dragonriders but I think it makes them more special in a way. I do like the storyline here and the resultant repression of women. It allows for more plotting situations that you wouldn't find at other clubs-like the smuggling of women to the Weyr, the possibility of trafficking (I'll sell you my daughter if you give me this) since women are worth so much less, physical abuse, mental abuse etc. I honestly think back to how Pern was under Fax and how it allowed Lessa to become who she did.

I think Lady Holders here could have a stronger role if that were in their personality. IE: You saw it when Angelina played her Lady Holder at ACH (okay so maybe she was crazy) but that woman ran that Hold and made sure everyone knew it. Felyna could probably develop into a stronger character in that respect since Corowal seems to defer more to her. Xeladrie is still learning and doesn't have her husband's trust/respect. Benani has her own personal problems to deal with.

Golds are rare by definition but especially in our smaller population they need to be more rare. It would be cool to see more like Tsaera-retired ones and how they act/interact. Goldriders live long lives so you know they would exist. We do have female craftmasters (Reeva ) And Holders....they've made long strides since the olden days. Corowal has female harpers in his Hold. Zathris had a female mindhealer in his Hold. So...I think times are changing little by little. Once the population grows back like it was before, the crafts may allow more women like they did before. After all, more women underfoot with nothing to do could be a bad and worrisome thing right? Let the crafts feed them and let them be useful. HAHAHA

[Heather]

1. I do wish our Canon here at Triad would begin to "grow" some by allowing a female crafter in the holds here and there (currently, unless they're a technician or dolphineer they basically have to accepted at the Weyr first as a crafter and then they slide sideways into the Holds sometimes--- it seems anyway). Like, it doesn't have to be a plethora all at once, but over time women WOULD begin to gain some rights slowly-- and I think it would be nice if our canon began reflecting that.

2. I do think female blueriders make sense-- if a gay man can ride a green and a blue why can a gay woman not ride a green and a blue? However, I'm perfectly fine with Triad's canon not allowing them =) It feels more like Anne's canon.

3. Golds-- I would never want more unless activity of the club demanded more. As it is, I think we have too many golds for the small amount of activity that is at each PC Weyr.  Now, in-character, of course, there's suppose to be about 3-6 depending on the "size" of the Weyr.

[Leigh]

Hee hee, posting from my phone at work 'cause my boss is on vacation!

On female craftmasters: Let's see 'em in crafts that allow women, and in less conservative Holds. If some Holds loosened up about women, though, I think logically they'd be in the minority. And we do get a lot of character development outta Holders learning to adapt if they Impress.

On Lady Holders with more administrative power: Again, that might happen in more liberal Holds, but it'd be amazing to see.

On more female greenriders and female blueriders: Honestly, I still don't get the point of girls on blue. (My stupid Aspie brain at work, I guess.) I know it was a long time coming when Todd made it canon, but I don't see why lesbian, bisexual, and asexual women can't Impress green as well. That's one reason why I don't have a character at DCW; lesbian greenriders aren't allowed, and I'm disappointed by that.

On more queen dragons: Those are a privilege that must be earned. Let's keep 'em rare and thus frustrate n00b gold-diggers/shiny-hunters. More gold fire-lizards might be doable, though, as rewards for excellence in gameplay or admin service, or something.

I think that's everything.

[Paula]

1) Female Craftmasters...been there done that ;) and it was fun. Especially since Chorelia had to battle saboteurs inside her Hall and the thick headed, hidebound southern holders. And then I took a year off from Triad because I had a baby, killed her and whole Hall sunk under the waves while I was gone. I miss Chorelia and I miss technician Hall. (and that was....my daughter will be eleven in next month. *gasp* We could use one like Chorelia around here now. Strong female (hall)master.

2) Lady Holders with more power...it's up to the the Lady's writer (and probably co-ordinated with the Lord's writer). I would love to see Felyna take more active role but alas, Clancey writes so rarely. Her posts are gems to be treasured. it would also interesting to see the Lord and Lady have a hidden struggle for power. (Hidden from public view, I mean for the rest of the hold, they would apear like perfect pair but behind the closed door there would be fighting for power).

3) Female blueriders..no! no! no! I've been in Pern-pbem where female bluerides were plotting to overthrow the Weyrleader. Guess why I left? Oh, and I've not red any of Todd's Pern-books. To me, Pern books ended to The Skies of Pern.

4) Lesbian females impressing greens...why not? They just have to accept that they will be forced to have sex with man once in every third month. What they do and with whom outside mating flights is their private business.  Bi's would have less problems..and most of the male blueriders swing both ways anyway (at least the blueriders I write...and few male crafters I write too).

5) the role of women in holds and craft-restrictions. Well, in EFH, Corowal does allow women to craft which is why the Harper/Printer Hall came back. Not all holders accept this but things _are_ slowly getting more relaxed in EFH. There's unused roleplaying potential here, people, so seize it! Daughter wanting to be crafter...holder forced to accept female crafter in the Hold (not just in the Hall), Holders protesting against Corowal's policy... Wife beater getting sentanced to prison and that causing waves among to hold-population.

[Len]

Okay, I'll weigh in now too. ;-)

Female blueriders--I think it makes sense, in that it would give us who don't have both female green and gold riders a bit more choice. And it would make the place more exciting by having a role for lesbians, in a canon that is accepting of gay male riders but not of gay women (or any trans persons). Ditto for bi and lesbian greenriders. And even bi male greenriders (but that'll be another topic!). Another added thing is it might make Triads more attractive for writers seeking a more traditional Pern roleplay but also isn't so Canon-bound.

Female Masters--I'd love to see this, and it might be a fun way to bring more action into the Craft halls, which don't get played as much as the Holds and Weyrs.

I hear Paula on the fact that we're letting some great plot lines go unwanted with the loosening of EFH's restrictions on women crafters. Perhaps that could be something a few or more of us could write?

Personally, my biggest love would be to see female blueriders. It's something I would absolutely love to play!

And with goldriders, I should have clarified that a  bit better. What I was asking is--in the books most Weyrs (except for Belden) had an entire wing of golds, but yet we here only allow for two golds and a junior gold at each Weyr. If we were to relax that could we see a bit more interesting roleplay develop? Say, if one of us could get a retired goldrider? Seriously, how much fun would a cranky, ballsy 80-something gold rider be?? Or a few more junior riders, to fill out the wings? And it wouldn't even have to be a 'thing' where we suddenly get flooded with shinny seekers. We could set up a system like we already have with HADs...you get so many points, you can buy a gold rider. That way the person has got to be writing here for a few years, and so has to be pretty darn dedicated! :P

[Avery]

You can already buy a retired goldrider or a junior queen...

3000 - Retired Goldrider Exempt from the 1 Goldrider Rule.

5000 - Jr. Goldrider Exempt from the 1 Goldrider Rule.

[Suzee]

Content removed

[Heather]

Another added thing is it might make Triads more attractive for writers seeking a more traditional Pern roleplay but also isn't so Canon-Nazi-bound.

I think Triad is already attractive to writers (GREAT writers, actually) because look at the crew it has assembled thus far It's one of the largest PBeMs left besides Arolos.

[Anika]

Hmm...interesting to think about.  I like the strict canon of Triad because it keeps us all writing in the same world so to speak.  The imagination is limitless so one variation, then another, then another and pretty soon it's a somewhat Pern-like PBM, which isn't bad necessarily but not the same. 

I'm not for female bluerdiers.  I'm more of a Anne than a Todd fan and just sort of like the male blueriders.  However, I don't see why female greenriders couldn't be bi-sexual or even lesbian.  That would seem to follow with the rest of canon fairly well.  Brown or Bronzeriders sometimes win flights with male greenriders and it is considered just part of flight dynamics. 

I like having limited goldriders.  I think there are good options for more if you save your marks and tend to think it should be more a reserved position.  The idea of an entire wing is intriguing - so possibly some NPC golds owned by the council...that can be referred to and only used for certain plots...NAH!  I think I like how things are now. We can have more golds as people earn them (council determines the need). 

I think a Lady Holder _could_ play a stronger role and as Paula noted this could provide us with some interesting plot ideas. I don't think one would have to go outside of canon to do that.  Sometimes power does not lie where it seems to.  Now if you are talking about a Lady Holder running the Hold _without_ a Lord Holder that's a different story.  I actually like the way that Triad has set up the dichotomy with women's roles in the Hold verses the Weyr.  I think it allows for some tension and also a variety of plot ideas - some of which Chelle mentioned.  I think it's fun to have both options.  I do think some of the Holds are becoming more relaxed, but after a generation of the craft ban and limited rights for women, I think realistically, it would take TIME.  However, I do see the interesting potential for a Hold to start distinguishing itself as more liberal, but were that to happen, I'd want to see balance with some Holds remaining VERY conservative.   

Many of the crafters already seem more liberal as there are a few that allow female crafters now.  I didn't get the impression that it would be impossible for a woman to Hold a ranking position in a craft that accepted women, though it might require council approval.  I wouldn't want to see a whole lift of the craft ban, though, because, (again) I rather like the tension provided by that as well as the story options.