Possible Rule Changes and Activity Ideas!

[Curious]

Alright. I know this might not be very popular, but it feels important to say, so bear with me.

I second Francesca's post. I wasn't sure how to bring it up, but as it stands, it honestly kinda feels like there's an unspoken rule that rankers are reserved for older, established members and newer members need to be content with only playing wingriders forever. But the problem isn't just that there's no guide as to how to obtain rank. A lot of the ranks haven't been played in a very long time, even prior to the activity slump this year. And because they are filled by older inactive members, no one else can play them.

The combination of there being no guide for how to receive rank and many ranks being filled by inactive members is very discouraging to newer members who are trying to be active. Talking about loosening requirements actually makes me anxious because it makes me feel like people are going to be able to sit on their inactive rankers indefinitely and new members will simply never get opportunities. I can only speak for myself, but while I'm not going to quit if I don't get a ranker soon and appreciate the opportunites that have been given me, if it becomes clear that I'm just never going to get the opportunity to play rank no matter how active and involved I am, I'm not going to stick around.

Edit: It also feels worthwhile to mention that I did attempt to apply for an open Wingsecond position. I was at the height of my activity, very involved in the game, and meeting all requirements. However, I was ultimately unable to because I was told to speak to the Wingleader's player, who never responded to my email. So as it stands, newer members may not be able to get rank even if they do dig up for information and try to apply, as with how Triad works, you are effectively unable to create characters for the lower ranks if the rank directly above is inactive.

[Sia]

Hi folks,

I'm also brand new (hot on Corrin's heels) and have some ideas too:

• The rule updates would be fantastic. I'm mostly done my first character and honestly I'm just waiting to see what the verdict is on sexuality changes. At this point I think it's best to do away with sexuality-based impressions entirely, and it could be a neat plot-arc for some established characters. I think it's very odd to keep The Gays (tm) out of leadership roles, and I don't believe that the dragons and Weyr mindset really have the same understandings of 2SLGBTQIA+ that we do anyway. I'm okay with keeping the colours based on gender, but could go so far to say that nonbinary/genderqueer riders/candidates will be considered on a case-by-case basis. I'm super biased that browns are my favorite (which is why I'm waiting on the sexuality changes, lol) and offering women impressing brown as a very special impression-only plot arc would be really neat and give some extra incentive to write women, especially since gold eggs tend to be so few and far between. 



• I like the idea of posting requirements, but maybe they need to be refreshed to reflect how folks are posting now that the game isn't a round robin PBeM style? Honestly I haven't looked too much into it, but I wonder if it's harder to hit the post requirements now that folks are only posting finished works to the group list. I like having some sort of accountability so ranking positions continue to be active and pushing along group-wide plotlines, but maybe a check-in/"role call" periodically may fit better?

For site-wide plots, I'm happy with just about anything! I haven't played Pern for several years now so everything will be new.

As a new member trying to figure out all the canon before I submit a character, there looks like there's a lot of items on the website that aren't up to date with what it says on the forums or could be condensed-- for example, the actual Impress rules stay only straight women on greens, but there's an FAQ item later that offers buying a lesbian/bi impression or a woman on blue. It's not super easy for new members to get a sense of if the game is active or not, and having a more recent edited date on some of the intro articles would definitely help.

On that thought, I think the marks/point collection and items to "purchase" could be updated. Does an entirely finished joint post on google groups count as 1 point, or multiple points? How is this tracked? This is tied a bit into the post requirement issue too-- I'm not entirely sure how any of that is tracked anymore and if the expectation is accidentally higher than it was originally intended.

If the intent is to do a PC hatching to bring in new members/get folks active again, it may be worth it to look at the mark costs for impressing bronzes, women on blues, and Stands impressions-- these can be great incentives for activity and really hype up a hatching. Hatchings I've run in the past very rarely have a large amount of folks looking for any of these things even when there isn't a "cost" associated with them, so I only expect those kinds of changes to lower barrier to entry for new members, if anything.

Anyway, thanks for listening to me! I hope we get to write together soon.

[Duskdog]

Hi! Also new, so please also take my opinions with a grain of salt, as I know that those of you who have already been here and been active have a better understanding of the game and its culture than I do!

But, my thoughts:
I've been in Pern fandom for 25+ years now, and was there for Anne bringing the big hammer down on the fandom and the infamous tent-peg statement, etc. and wow, nothing drives home how much times have changed more than looking back on that stuff, and realizing how much our understanding of, and attitudes about, sexuality in general have changed.

My view on sexuality-based Impressions, as laid out in Anne's Renewable Airforce document (the origin of club rules like these in most clubs, and I assume Triad, as well) has always been this: if a dragon's urge to mate is so strong and undeniable that they will mate regardless of whether their rider even wants it to happen or not -- as is drilled home to us canonically many times -- why should they suddenly care enough about the particulars of their rider's desires and preferences to make it a literal hill to die on? Does it really make sense that Kitti Ping would program a creature that will drag their rider into non and/or dub-consensual sex with no second thoughts, but would choose to die on the Sands for lack of a partner rather than pick someone who is going to be sad about putting their eggplant in the wrong salad for two minutes once every few weeks/months during said non/dub-consensual sex?

That said, from a new member standpoint: I can't recall the last time I was in a club that actually still adheres to the old Renewable Airforce, and I think it would be great if Triad dropped all sexuality-based Impression requirements. They feel really limiting -- not just from an Impression standpoint, but from a what-relationships-can-my-character-develop standpoint, and a what-ambitions-can-my-gay-or-bi-character-have standpoint. Of course, it wouldn't change how the Hold and Craftfolk may view it.

As for gender-based Impression and any special requirements for those, I'm neutral on it. ICly that may be limited by lack of female candidates to choose from, though OOCly-speaking I doubt that's a problem.

For posting requirements, can't really weigh in as I'm not sure how the current level of these is affecting the club. I do think there should be some way to address the problem of people sitting on rank and blocking others from obtaining it or even doing other things due to lack of response from writers of important characters, and I personally don't mind adhering to requirements if I ever wrote a ranking character of some sort. But what approach/level of these works for Triad is beyond my ability to give proper input on currently.

For activity: Hatchings are the classic, for good reason. I think most of us probably got into Pern in the first place because of the Impression fantasy? And plots in general do tend to draw folks in, especially if there's lots of opportunity to get involved.

Not sure where the best place to recruit is these days, but I'm absolutely certain that there are old Pern veterans like myself that really miss it and are having increasing difficulty finding places to play that are reasonably canon-compliant.

Thanks for reading my little piece -- I'm happy to be here regardless of what the club decides, and look forward to writing with all of you eventually!

Brief Edit: Just wanted to clarify that I'm not suggesting that people/characters shouldn't care about where their eggplant goes. Sexual identity is very important to many people. Just that I don't think the dragons care.

[Corrin]

Other wishlist items that occur to me as I get more familiar with the site/s:

1. Fewer and easier security questions to posts in the forums.
Would it be secure enough with just one? It's not so easy to be casually active and shoot off a short post. Especially since I haven't read the Pern books in ages, lol. I've had to google the answer a few times.

2. Allow gold only candidates. Let them be disappointed!
We had a chat about this in Discord tonight. Curious seconded this, and added most of the description below:
It's strange that male candidates can state an Impression preference, but female candidates have to take a gamble on two very different outcomes. It's almost like a punishment. The fact that they automatically Impress green if they don't get gold, locks us out of other neat storylines, because if you want a female character to be able to potentially get rank, there are other opportunities for women if they don't get gold, but green locks a character out of rank forever unless you're okay with a wingthird glass ceiling.

Even if you're not interested in Rank, if you'd just prefer other story lines-- considering there is active Hold RP at Triad, there's also a whole other route of plots we're cut off of for girls who fail to Impress. We can have disappointed girls returning home to marry; trying to get into one of the few crafts that will take them; trying to get back into the graces of a family they left; trying to rise through the ranks and become headwomen or ensnare a Holder!

I get wanting to dissuade Shiny Hunters, but I don't think this is The Way. It limits and dictates a writer's RP choices too much. I think (light?) activity requirements and or actual responsibilities like I've seen for rankers (Location reports?) does the job much better. Also, I think the club is small and intimate enough that Shiny Hunters shouldn't be too much of an issue? At least not such an issue that it's worth handicapping other play. And the club wide vote for impression should really do the trick to thwart them anyway. I imagine any gold Impressee really has to earn it here. 

Duskdog also chimed in and put it well:

"Personally, I would think that someone writing a candidate in pursuit of gold, who also puts in the time and effort to consider and plot out other possibilities for the character should they not Impress -- particularly outside of the candidate-Impression cycle -- should be encouraged. It shows forethought, and devotion to the character concept as-is without a gold involved.

"On the other hand, I could also see there being a fear of "abandoned" female candidates who get tossed by the wayside if they don't get the gold and don't plot any alternatives. But honestly, if that's going to happen, it's going to happen regardless -- they'll just be abandoned greenriders instead of abandoned candidates."

[Duskdog]

Shiny Hunters were a huge problem back in the height of fandom, but I think that now, with fandom as small as it is, this is far less of an issue.

And, as Corrin quoted from me above: putting them on green doesn't really discourage Shiny Hunting in general, because if all they wanted was gold, they're still going to abandon the character regardless of whether they're on green or not. It really just bars "failed" gold candidates from seeking any sort of storyline outside of "well you're a greenrider now".

Nothing wrong with that storyline, but do they all need to be forced into the same path?

For the forum post verification: I have no problem answering the questions, but I have to make it say the letters out loud every single time, because dang if I can actually read the verification jumble LOL

[Devin]

Maybe a "gold only" candidate could be bought with member reward marks? The writer would pay ahead of the Hatching to guarantee that if they don't win the contest, their Candidate character doesn't Impress.

I think that would at least help to prevent characters being abandoned if they don't get gold. If you're willing to pay with member rewards, you're likely to have story ideas for a disappointed Candidate.

[Curious]

I second what Devin said. If someone wanted their candidate to have a shot at gold and had a storyline idea for if the candidate didn't impress but didn't have anything that they wanted to do with their character if they impressed green and was forced onto green regardless, I can actually see it making them far more likely to abandon the character. I can imagine that people would be willing to pay marks to avoid that, even knowing that it does not at all increase their chances of impressing gold and they won't get a refund if they do get it. I know I would under certain circumstances.

[halyonix]

i would like to pivot and ask the question about writer inactivity because i was wondering if the council had any plans to reach out to some of those writers with rankers who have been inactive for a long period of time. it might free up some ranks for newbies to step into and revitalize the club.

[Suzee]

Great Question.  Have you looked at the Open Rank page?  There are 24 open positions at the moment. Do any of those interest you? 

Still open to the discussion of the rule changes of course but there are currently many open positions.

Open Rank: https://triadweyrs.org/list_openrank.php

And if you're interested there are also adoptables and some of them are also rankers:
https://triadweyrs.org/list_adopt.php

[Estelle]

Hi everyone!

Thank you all so much for all of your feedback on the proposed rule changes and for your honest and constructive suggestions for improvements! I am really excited to get Triad Weyrs more active again and this has generated some great ideas which I think will make the club much more fun and welcoming.

To give you an update on what's going on:

• We plan to update the website with the proposed rule changes and posting requirement updates at the weekend, having taken all of your comments into account, and will let you know when this is done.
• The council is actively discussing all of your additional suggestions and will update the club on each one. It may take a little while, as we want to make sure that they are all fully considered and that council members with busy lives have time to respond! We also want to try out changes one by one and check they work for us (for example, seeing how we do with female blueriders before female brownriders).
• In the meantime, the rules are what they are I know there is some conflicting information on the website which we plan to correct - if you have any questions please do post in the Member Inquiries board or reach out to a council member. We know people are waiting for changes to create new characters and start plots and we appreciate your patience!

Do continue to post ideas here in this thread if you have any! If you'd like to use Discord, that's fine, but don't forget that not everyone uses it so:

• Please post any suggestions that you want considered by the council in this thread on the forum
• If you want to have a detailed discussion on Discord, it may be better to take it out of the main #general or #triadweyrs channels and into a group chat or message a council member to avoid any confusion about whether you are asking about the current rules or suggesting a change!

One final note - everyone appears to like the idea of having a Hatching soon so we will definitely be doing that! We'll make an announcement with a location soon...

[Estelle]

1. Fewer and easier security questions to posts in the forums.
Would it be secure enough with just one? It's not so easy to be casually active and shoot off a short post. Especially since I haven't read the Pern books in ages, lol. I've had to google the answer a few times.

Just to quickly reply to this - I was initially not sure what was going on as had never seen this, but I found a forum setting where members with less than 3 posts have to pass verification. I have changed this to less than 1 so it should (hopefully) only apply for the first post and for guests now!

[Duskdog]

Great Question.  Have you looked at the Open Rank page?  There are 24 open positions at the moment. Do any of those interest you? 

Still open to the discussion of the rule changes of course but there are currently many open positions.

Open Rank: https://triadweyrs.org/list_openrank.php

And if you're interested there are also adoptables and some of them are also rankers:
https://triadweyrs.org/list_adopt.php

Just to clarify before I start, since there seems to be a lot of confusion about the difference between folks personally wanting a thing, and folks just trying to look at the overall picture and discuss problems they see: I am not personally seeking rank at this time, nor do I plan to in the immediate future.

But I think it's important to point out a few things here:

1. People are rarely just looking for any random rank that may be available. They are typically looking for some specific role, or a specific advancement for a particular character. So "24 open positions" may not mean anything to a person who's hoping for, say, an established persona to be promoted to Wingleader, because none of those 24 open positions are Wingleader. (That's just an example, not meant to be taken as a literal representation of ranks that are available.) And I don't think anyone is opposed to waiting a while for a particular position to come open, if necessary -- nobody expects all ranks to be open at all times. The issue is that players need to at least be able to have some sort of hope that a particular position may come open in the future. If the character occupying the spot is active, there's always hope, because that writer may eventually choose to have that character's story take a turn that leaves the position open (whether through death, demotion, promotion, lateral movement, etc.). But that hope doesn't exist if the spot is occupied by an inactive character if consequences don't exist. If it's apparent that people will be allowed to just sit on their rank indefinitely, despite not actually writing for that character in months or even years, it starts to get very discouraging for players -- especially if it starts to become a pattern.

2. Many of them say "Contact [Insert Person Here] for Details". If [Insert Person Here] is inactive and missing in action so that you can't contact them, then what? (This exact scenario has already been a problem for someone, as detailed earlier in this thread.) Will the Council override and allow someone to fill the position, even if the person "in charge" of it never replies to inquiries? The answer to this is unclear, and I think folks are just looking for clarification on this.

3. Adoptable Personas are great, but again, most people aren't just trying to collect rank badges to slap on their chest. They're looking for a fulfilling roleplay option for a particular character (whether it be an established one, or a new one they're working on), and often the adoptable in question doesn't fit what they're looking for -- and may even be attached to other "dead" or AWOL characters, themselves, which removes a lot of the appeal.

I'm glad we have the Open Ranks page, and available adoptables, but those don't really address the specific concerns that have been raised.

[Sia]

1. Fewer and easier security questions to posts in the forums.
Would it be secure enough with just one? It's not so easy to be casually active and shoot off a short post. Especially since I haven't read the Pern books in ages, lol. I've had to google the answer a few times.

Just to quickly reply to this - I was initially not sure what was going on as had never seen this, but I found a forum setting where members with less than 3 posts have to pass verification. I have changed this to less than 1 so it should (hopefully) only apply for the first post and for guests now!

Oh thank goodness, you didn't see me trying to figure out which of...three? Mastersmiths during the 9th Pass the security question wanted. I'm glad it's just a newbie thing and not for every post going forward.

Thank you for all the updates and I'm excited to see what comes next!

[Heather]

Just wanted to add something, there's been many comments made about people "sitting on rank" and inactive people in ranking positions. For people who have not been at Triad lately, the entire club has been inactive for the past year, maybe two. Only recently have members been returning and coming out of hibernation - this coincided with a sudden influx of people wanting to join and wanting to suggest changes to a club they've just joined or haven't even joined yet. Some of us have been here at Triad for a decade (or decades) and now a lot of change requests are being thrown at us.

Please just give us a second to catch up from the whiplash, lol.

I'm not saying this applies to ALL positions of rank held by inactive writers, but give us a second to get the sleep out of our eyes.

Thanks 

If you've joined recently and are looking coposts all of my personas are up for coposts

You can shoot me an email at obsidian.writer@gmail.com - I'm still old school and suck at Discord, so email is best.

[Duskdog]

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I'll offer my apologies if any of my suggestions have come across as attacks, because that certainly wasn't my intention. I'm just excited to get involved, and well, the rules discussion seems to be where the action is happening right now -- and it seems important. As I've said, I don't expect my opinions to necessarily carry much weight, as I'm not yet familiar with club culture.

As for the thoughts about rank: I'm not actually trying to make a judgment on whether anyone is actually sitting on rank or not. I haven't been around long enough to make that call. But I saw a couple of other members who have been around longer than me raising concerns about some things, and it felt like some of the replies they've gotten (both here and in the Discord) have been missing the essence of what they're actually saying, so I was hoping to help clarify.

Please don't feel rushed! I'm sure nobody intends for their discussion on these topics to imply "change this now", and of course getting together to make decisions on important stuff takes time and organization that can't always happen quickly.

Personally-speaking none of the proposed rules changes even affects any of my currently-planned characters, so you're eventually getting them regardless of any decisions made here. :D