Triad Forum

Hello again Triadians!

The Council has thought very carefully about the discussions that were going on about having NPC wings in each Weyr.  We know that many people are very excited about the idea, and we love to see your enthusiasm!  But, with the new NPC rule that is going into effect, it just raised too many questions about the administrative logistics, such as, if a player from an NPC wing needed to become a PC, where would they go?  We're not, however, opposed to the idea of opening a new PC wing in each Weyr if there is enough interest and if we can find three members who would be willing to serve as Wingleaders.  Again, we know that it's not exactly what you wanted, but we hope that it would be a compromise that would suit your needs.  And of course, in the event that we open new PC wings, we would take name suggestions from members and probably post a poll for you to choose your favorites.  Some of the names thrown out are quite good!

So if you could please answer the poll and let us know what you think, we can go from there!

Thanks!

Eimi
On Behalf of the Council

NOTE: we will finish the poll May 15th so people who are LOA/LIA have a chance to weigh in

Well, in answer to the "where would they go" question, wouldn't it just be simple enough to say that if you want to make a rider PC they have to be in one of the PC wings.... they would just have to transfer from an NPC wing.  If the Weyrleader's writer was the only person who could NPC the NPC Wingleaders, then that would solve the issue of controlling the NPC wings.  I think this is just a bit overblown.  The discussion wasn't about wanting to expand the wings in PCdom, it was just to make it more realistic when the Weyrlingmaster, Weyrleader, and Wingleaders sit around to discuss the Sr. Weyrlings.  Acting like there are only 2 wings is impractical (really 3 isn't much better, Todd talks about how there are 9-12 in a full Weyr I believe), but they only need to be peripheral and occassionally mentioned.  We have a hard enough time as it is filling up with wing positions we have.

Trust me, Cali, the Council had a long discussion.  First of all, let me clear up a quick misconception - if there ever were to be an NPC wing, the Weyrleader of that Weyr would not have been able to write for the Wingleaders of it, nor have any control over it's history or direction.  They would be Council owned positions, just like all other NPC locations.  And it wasn't the Weyrleader/Wingleader/Weyrlingmaster/Sr.Weyrling post that we felt might create issues, it was other posts and NPCs that would require way too much monitoring, especially given the new NPC rules.  We discussed it at length, and felt this was the better way to go at this time.

I second what Cali said.

Quote from: "Becki"I second what Cali said.

You and Cali are both entitled to your opinions, but the Council has already discussed it and came to a decision.  We understand what you guys wanted and why, and we have tried to offer you a compromise rather than saying "no" flat out.  If you don't want we offered than vote "no".  If you accept the compromise then vote "yes".  I'm sorry if it isn't the decision you would have come to, but it is the decision we came to.  Whenever possible we try to give you guys what you want, and when we can't, we try to give you at least something.  If that's not good enough, I'm sorry, but it's the best we can do.   The Council will not be discussing it any more except in light of the outcome of the vote.


EDIT: just one more quick note... In reference to what Cali said before about Todd saying there are 9-12 wings, please keep in mind that nothing that Todd McCafferey has ever said or written has been incorporated into Triad Canon except for his chapter on Dragonrider Training in the DLGP.  Not saying I agree or disagree with the numbers, I just want to make sure there's no confusion there.  If you want to know what IS included in canon, please look here: http://www.triadweyrs.org/faq.php?fq_id=488 (http://www.triadweyrs.org/faq.php?fq_id=488)

Quote from: "Eimi"You and Cali are both entitled to your opinions,

And I was expressing my opinion, which is that I agree with what Cali said. I disagree with the direction the Council took this in. I did not ask them to change their minds. I did not ask them to discuss the issue again.

I expressed my opinion, and that is ALL I did.

I understand that.  As I said, you are entiled to your opinion.  But Cali expressed her opinion, I explained our position, and that should have been the end of it on the forums.

Let's remember that the forums are a public area.  People come here to socialize, to discuss things, to share ideas.  It should a place were people enjoy visiting.  Disagreements do not belong here.  That has always been our policy.  I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't express your opinions.  Sometimes it's healthy to tell someone you disagree with something they have said or decided, but you need to go to them directly, not put it up here.  That has always been the policy because it tends to drag others in and makes people feel uncomfortable.  Under this current Council, no one has ever been punished in any way for expressing a dissenting opinion.  We understand that sometimes the decisions we make are not ones you may agree with, and we invite you to express your opinion to us in a politely worded e-mail, and we will try to explain to you why we made the choice we did.  In the end you may or may not understand our position, but we will not punish you for telling us that you think we were wrong.  But please tell us directly.  The forums are for EVERYONE.  

Usually when it seems a discussion is going in an uncomfortable direction we lock down the thread and end the discussion before it can go too far, but I don't want to close off the poll since some people might still want to vote.  So I would just ask that if anyone else wants to express an opinion, please feel free to contact the Council directly.

Might I suggest a section on the forum where we can talk to the council in an open manner and others can comment with agreements or disagreements on the subject?  That way people don't have to look if it will upset them, but it will also be more fair to someone who wants to express an opinion.  You as the council might not realize how intimidating "the council" is to people.  When someone sends a message of disagreement to "the council" it's pretty much the 1 person against 5.  Those 5 hide behind their little admin section and discuss a situation between themselves and then tell the 1 person what the law is.  The 1 person feels utterly alone and isolated against a large mass of power.  It can be very disheartening as well as isolating.  

I'm not saying the council is doing this on purpose, but that is the way it is sometimes interpereted by many people here at Triad, and this might be a good way of relieving some of that discontent that is rampantly growing in this community.

I have to agree with Cali.  I have felt very intimidated in the past.  I thought the forum was one of the ways that we could communicate with the Council.  If we have a specific section for that, it would help ease that intimidation and others could see topics that have been discussed in the past and the various resolutions.

I can understand what you guys are saying.  I started out on the other side of the curtain too.  I know that it can seem that there's "The Council" and "Us", and trust me, it's as frustrating for us as it is for all of you.  But there is a reason why there is a curtain.

The Council is made up of a small group of people with a good grasp of canon, administrative skills, and an understanding of club history, both in the timeline and out of character.  We're a team made up of people who work well together, which is probably the most important thing.  In Council fighting used to plague this club and spill over into the members as well.  A few of you, I'm sure, remember that time.  It was also a time when if you disagreed with the Council, you were most likely going to be kicked out of the club.  I am very proud to say that this Council has never kicked a member out.  There was a time when the Council would give special privileges to the people they liked and punish those they didn't.  I am proud to say that no one has been singled out for either rewards or punishment since this Council was put in place.  In fact we go to great lengths to ensure that doesn't happen.  If we are hard on anyone, it's on ourselves.  There were numerous times when drama and in-fighting nearly ripped this club apart.  I am proud of the fact that in the last four years, when drama did spring up, it was resolved quickly and peacefully ,and the club could keep going without missing a step.  There was a time when you SHOULD have been intimidated and afraid of going to the Council with questions and complaints, but that has never been this Council.

You don't like that we have our little secret admin location that we can see but no one else can.  It didn't used to be on the forums.  It used to be all done by e-mail.  There were a few occassions where something was accidentally sent to the main list rather than the Council list, which caused hurt and embarrassment for the Council and some of the members.  Members could get a glimpse of what was happening behind the curtain, and it wasn't always pretty.  That's why it was moved to the forums - to ensure that it never happened again.  Who wants everyone to hear that they are on probation?  Or that the Council feels they're not ready for a ranker?  Or that they made a serious lapse in canon that needed to be corrected?  Who wants everyone to hear that they have submitted an idea for a story that is so very far off canon that nothing from it is workable, and have everyone watch as it gets ripped to shreds?  Who wants to have everyone hear that their mentorship is going slowly and it might be a while before they're released?  Who wants everyone to know that their persona sheet is unacceptable and just plain bad?  NONE of that belongs on the public forums in my opinion, and I think you would agree.

There's another reason why the admin section is secret.  The Council is made of up of five members.  I think people tend to forget that.  They see it as a unit, but it's not.  It's individuals who have bad days, who get offended, who take things the wrong way, who over react, who get frustrated sometimes.  We need that secret place where we can go and vent and complain and say exactly what is on our mind so that cooler heads can prevail.  We need that place to discuss and to look at the issue from all sides.  And we have a very good group of people.  We work very well together, which is essential.  We don't always agree with each other, but we never fight.  We don't always see an issue the same way, but we can compromise and come to a consensus.  It can be messy sometimes, but in the end, we come to a resolution we can all agree on.  And then we present our decision to you as a united body.  We work VERY hard to make sure that our responses to you are politic and gentle.  We submit draft after draft sometimes, checking and rechecking to make sure that nothing we say can be deemed hurtful, accussing, or angry towards our members.  We try at all times to be respectful, and to present constructive ideas and praise.  We do that to try to make sure that any contact you have with the Council is a positive experience.  I was always very proud of the measures we took to ensure there were no hard feelings and that we took our members feelings into account.  But I have to admit, now I feel rather discouraged to know that dispite that, we still seem unapproachable.  We're obviously failing there somewhere, though where, I'm not sure.

This Council has always worked hard to ensure that the only thing our members have to worry about it writing, co-posting, making friends and enjoying their experience.  We ask nothing more of our members than that.  Anything above that - welcoming committee, admin duties, mentoring - you get "salaries" for.  Council members don't even get that.  We pay for the club, we mentor members, we maintain the website, we monitor the forums to make sure all questions are answered and all members have a positive experience, we monitor the list to be sure nothing inappropriet is sent to it and everything fits within the ground rules laid out, we uphold and clarify the canon (after all this club is MEANT to be a strict canon club and so therefore we are SUPPOSED to be strict with the canon), we do regular maintainance of the list in the form of Roll Calls, we give everyone a chance to give positive feedback to each other through the Crayon Awards, we constantly update the FAQ, we approve personas to ensure they fit into our club and are ready to be played, we think of ways we can make life easier for everyone...  The list could go on and on.  And we do all of that for nothing.  We get very little credit, and a whole lot of criticism and nit picking, and we never complain because we accepted that this is our role in this club.  I could be replying to coposts and enjoying all of you right now, but instead I'm replying to this message, and after this I have 11 PA sheets I have to look at, and I have some Council questions to look at, the faq to update, etc...  And somewhere in there I have my ACTUAL job to do and a life to live...  But I don't mind doing all that, because I do it so you don't have to.  We do all that so all you guys have to do is think about coposting and enjoying each other.  I accept that you guys feel we are failing you somehow, but I honestly don't know where.

We didn't give you the answer you wanted to hear for the NPC wings.  I know that.  And for you guys, all you see is that it was a simple little issue.  That's how it is SUPPOSED to be for you.  But when I looked at that issue, I saw even more work for the Council.  I saw potential problems in the system from an administrative point of view.  And I will admit to you right now, I voted against NPC wings for very selfish reasons - I didn't want the headache.  I have enough I have to do. I know I tried to find a compromise for you.  I know I tried to find something to soften the blow.   Maybe it is a little self-centered, but I thought that I deserved a little consideration too.  I thought I work hard enough that I deserve the right to vote against something that could potentially add to my list of things to do today.  Am I wrong?  Maybe I am.  I don't know.  

You want a place on the forums where you can openly discuss things with the Council.  Well, I can tell you right now, it wouldn't change anything.  The Council is made up of individuals, but we still have to come to a consensus in our decisions.  So you can ask your questions on the forum, but we will still have to discuss it "behind close doors" before we give you our answer.  So it will still be you asking the question and then the Council telling you our decision.  And you can agree, disagree, tell us what a terrible job we're doing, rant and rave...  what would that accomplish?  Hard feelings on both sides?  Is that really what is best for this club?

We want you to enjoy this club.  We want you to make friends and have fun.  We don't mind if we can't always be part of it.  We accept that our role is to be just "The Council".  We accept that you might want to tell us all the ways we're not doing our job, and we'll keep doing our job and making sure you have a place to write and have fun, and we'll play the bad guy so everything continues running smoothly.  And we'll accept that you'll want to send us e-mails from time to time to tell us how bad of a job we're going, how we're not doing things your way, how we've failed you...  All that we ask is that you give us a little privacy when you do it.  I really don't think that's too much, is it?

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have a lot of work I have to do.

I don't think the issue is that we want to be able to see the private Council forums.  I think it's more that it would be nice to have a place to voice our concerns where other people can see it and pipe in agreement if they agree, or even in disagreement if they don't.  Somewhere where we wouldn't feel like we were alone, one against five.  

In addition, when a person sends an email to the Council, that's just one person and the members of the Council may not have an idea of how well supported (or unsupported) the idea or issues in the email is.  A forum would enable the Council to see how well supported or unsupported an idea is.  Of course, this would only be in regards to issues that affect the club as a whole, not individual issues.  

I know you said having such a forum might bring things down, but if posts are done in a constructive manner, that wouldn't be the case.  The same rules would apply as they would to other forums in terms of politeness.  Those who break the rules would then suffer the same consequences as they would on the other forums.  

Am I making sense?

I think you are making sense, Amanda.  The problem, though, is what you're saying is actually getting to the heart of the problem.

You're saying that you want a forum to discuss things so you don't feel so intimidated to talk to the council, that it's intimidating with the "1 against 5" ratio.  I'm starting to get the fact that the problem isn't with the Council.  The problem is with the individual.  For the Council, it has never been and never will be "us against them".  We never saw this as a competition or a fight.  It seems that you and some other members are feeling that it is "us against the Council".  It has never mattered to the Council if it was one member or fifty that asked us for something, if it was possible to give it to them and if it wasn't against the best interests of the club, we gave it to them.  It has never mattered if they came to us alone or as a whole.  We treat all questions, requests and ideas equally.  A forum won't change that policy.  I'm not sure a forum can even TOUCH that problem.  That's more a personal problem.  Not to say personal only pertaining to you, I mean, it sounds like some members have turned the Council into a "boogieman" in their own minds, and I can imagine perfectly how that idea has spread from one to the next behind the scenes.  I'm not sure where that comes from, but it sounds like that's the real problem.  I think a forum in fact would perpetuate that problem more than solve it.  If you want to fix this problem, we need to get to the root of THAT problem, because if you're coming into this with a "me against the Council" mentality, the problem isn't with us, the problem is with how you've created us in your own mind.  I mean really, what do you think we can do besides tell you that we disagree?  Do you think we'll kick you out?  Do you think we'll take away your rankers?  Do you think we'll hold you back somehow?  Have we EVER done anything like that to ANYONE?

As long as I've been here, I've not seen anyone get kicked out.  However, I have seen requests get lost, requests be unanswered, issues brought up and unresolved a year later.  Some replies that have been received contained a certain passive aggressiveness that has been rather disconcerting.  

Yes, I  know no one gets paid to do this, but responsibilities were taken on willingly.  I understand that everyone has things happen, there is more beyond this club, but at the same time when we sign up for this club we have all made a certain commitment to it.  I feel like a lot of issues are getting pushed to the side.  Important things aren't being addressed and making things worse.  People sign up to join and then move away.  Part of it may be that they don't like the strict canon, but I think some of it has to do with the issues that are not being addressed in the club.  

Perhaps there is so much email going around that the issues are getting lost.  Having a forum for such things would keep them in one place where it would be easy to refer to over and over.

Also, while I understand that doing wings the way that others suggested, simply explaining why the council decided not to go that route might have been taken with less frustration than the option provided.  Perhaps an explanation and then an invitation to make other suggestions?  

I understand your lives are busy, things happen, good and bad.  I have offered my help multiple times in the past and am still more than willing to assist the Council in anyway I possibly can.  If things are so hard, please let me and any other willing members help.  We WANT to help.

Have no idea about the NPC wing issue... and I think everyone's making sense..

Just wanted to say that I was here when the Council *was* wacko. And indeed, I was almost forced to leave once because of it. So yes, you all have it very good indeed. Believe me ;)

*casts vote*

Quote from: "Chelle"Have no idea about the NPC wing issue... and I think everyone's making sense..

Just wanted to say that I was here when the Council *was* wacko. And indeed, I was almost forced to leave once because of it. So yes, you all have it very good indeed. Believe me ;)

So if you want to hear horror stories, privately email me. umhm.

*casts vote*

Same here Chelle, I've been member for very long time. I think this discussion should be whistled out. Let's just write co-posts and enjoy reading them.  :sunny:

I don't necessary want to stir anything more up here, but I did feel I should address the issue of the Council being slow in replies and losing some requests.

That is admittedly our greatest flaw, and the Council knows that is our fault.  It was never done intentionally, and no individual's messages were misplaced more often than anyone elses.  I could see how it might be taken as a personal slight, though, and for that we apologize wholeheartedly.  

The problem hasn't been that we don't have somewhere to save all of these messages.  We have every single message sent to the Council saved from the last three years at least.  The problem has been that the open issues have a tendancy to pile up one on top of the other, in which case things get lost.  Often what happens is that we start working on something, but another issue that we feel is more immediate comes up and we switch gears to that topic and the other gets shoved back down the list.  This is something we know we need to work on.  But this is also why we invite you to send us a quick mail if you haven't heard back from us in a week and ask if there's any progress.  Chances are something else came up and your request was pushed down the line.  If you send us a reminder, that usually shoots it back up to the top again, or we usually try to at least give you an update on where are.  

As of yesterday morning, the Council had 34 open topics of discussion and issues that needed to be addressed.  We're making a strong effort to bring that number down to a more managable level because we think that will help us address your questions and issues much quicker than we have been.  Now we're down to 22, but we still have a ways to go.  So we would ask for your patience, and that if there is anything you feel we have lost in the pile, please feel free to send us a nudge and ask how things are going on that.

Again, we are sorry if anyone was offended by our slow response.  We never meant it to be taken personally, and we will work hard to try to answer everyone's messages in a more timely manner, and we would ask your help in sending us gentle reminders if you feel something has been misplaced.

Since there doesn't appear to be a clear cut preference I thought I'd explain why I voted against the forming of another PC wing in case this goes to the council for discussion.  
1. What's the point?  A third wing isn't any more realistic than 2.  There would still be a need to mention more wings at the Weyr.  
2. We can't get enough people interested in actively playing the L2's we have now, we don't need more to be left unused or unwanted.
3.  This whole thing has killed the reason for the question.  The post we were wanting to use the NPC wingleaders/wing names for is going to sound supid and unrealistic with a Weyrlingmaster splitting a class of 40 weyrlings into TWO or even THREE Wings (even if a third of them are too young).  So I'm not going the write the post.

Quote from: "Eimi"EDIT: just one more quick note... In reference to what Cali said before about Todd saying there are 9-12 wings, please keep in mind that nothing that Todd McCafferey has ever said or written has been incorporated into Triad Canon except for his chapter on Dragonrider Training in the DLGP.  Not saying I agree or disagree with the numbers, I just want to make sure there's no confusion there.  If you want to know what IS included in canon, please look here: http://www.triadweyrs.org/faq.php?fq_id=488 (http://www.triadweyrs.org/faq.php?fq_id=488)

Just for clarification, from the Training and Fighting Dragons section of the DLG on page 58 of the second edition.  

"The fighting strength of the Weyr varies, with the high being some 330 fighting dragons..."
"A Weyrleader counts himself lucky to have nine good Wings of reasonable strength and some spare riders to make up for losses; his worries begin only when he reaches the inevitable point where he cannot make nine wings with a scant twelve dragons each."
"In good times a Wing contains thirty dragons.  Twelve is the smallest working Wing a Weyrleader will normally permit to fly."
"Three Wings are considered the smallest number that can successfully fight a Threadfall"

************

So, a wing is between 12-30 dragons.  Three fighting wings can win a Threadfall, Two and we're all dead.  330 dragons is a full Weyr and at 30 dragons that's 11 wings.  A good/normal wing allowment is 9.  

Since we all realize that the Weyrs in Triad aren't at full strength, let's do some numbers.  90 dragons would be the min and 330 the max... half way in between would be 210.  If we assume that 210 is the average of what the Triad weyrs have and they have full wings of 30, then that's 7 wings the Weyrs should have.  Even if the numbers are lower, that's 6 wings for each weyr, not counting the queens wing.  

These numbers are of course subjective, but they make alot more sense than three wings... that would only be 90 fighting dragons in the Weyr.  In fact, the Sr. Weyrling class could make up an entire wing all by itself which would leave only 60 or so adult fighting dragons in the Weyr at the time of the Sr. graduation.

I joined this club for the first time in 2001.  The Council imploded 5 months later and in the mess that followed one owner was ejected. I got dragged into the chaos and left shortly after.

I joined the club again in 2002.  The Council imploded 6 months later, and in the mess that followed one owner was ejected. I was used as the excuse for her being kicked out, and was encouraged to leave shortly after.  

In 2003 I wasn't even in the club.  The Council imploded. One of the owners was ejected.  (Hey, are we sensing a theme yet?  For anyone who's been around a really long time, just think back to 2000.  Some of you might remember that very same thing happening then, too.)  

In 2004 I rejoined the club.  Again.  Sometimes I never learn, but Triad seemed like a special place.  What can I say...I loved it.  Except it was struggling a little, possibly because all of the original owners had been kicked out by this point.  I took on some administrative duties.  Then more.  Then more.  I tried.  Sometimes I screwed up.  

In 2005, the only remaining owner of the club lost interest.  Emma and Clancey were trying to help out.  I recruited Eimi and Dana, barely out of mentorship, and pretty much forced them to learn the ropes as fast as humanly possible.  They had no idea what was going on and they worked 20, 30, 40 hour weeks trying to learn.  It was insane.  They were insane.  I was freaking nutballs, because this was a game, not a life calling.

But we learned.  And we tried.  And in 2006, 2007, 2008 & 2009, the Council didn't implode.  Sometimes we fought with each other.  (Sorry, Eimi...I know you say we disagree, but here I'm going to disagree...sometimes we fought.)  Sometimes we were passionate in standing up for an idea or standing against it.  But the one thing we all agreed on, time and time again, no matter how very, very upset, hurt or angry someone made us: this club is not going to be the place where members are ejected unless they attack other members.

It turns out that's not the most comfortable rule in the world to follow.  When we were especially behind in our admin work I got to watch people I liked and respected picking us into little pieces on livejournal.  I had to pretend I didn't see it, because every member has the right to hate us, to complain about us, and to think we suck at everything and anything.

There is only one right I am reserving for the Council, and that is the right to go about their daily business on this forum without being dogpiled.  Because when I see a request for a place where people can express discontent while getting support, what I see is the past.  Mob mentality ruling the club and turning us into what we have struggled so hard to get away from: the club that implodes every year in such a spectacular fashion people stock up on popcorn just to watch it.

At the end of the day, you can agree with how we run things or you can disagree.  And if you disagree, you can decide what you want to do.  Pern fandom has a long running tradition in cases such as these: when you're convinced the council sucks and you could do it better, then do it.  Do it better.  Do it different.  Do it faster, cooler, nicer, less tyrant-y, less strict and hey, with all the NPC wings you want.  You'll have to do it with your own website and forums and associated headaches, but the option is yours.

No one will hate you.  No one will hex you or wish you ill.  But the council is not going to change the way they're running things.  They'll try to be faster, more efficient and understanding, but they won't be everything you want. They never will.

But they'll also not implode and kick you out, not for disagreeing, not for insulting them, not even for telling them you think they suck.  And in the grand scheme of internet clubs, you might be surprised how rare that is.

And that is all this tired webmonkey has to say.

:hello1:

:geek:  I'll admit to owning the sash that says 'Miss Kicked-Out-in-2000'.

::gives Bree a standing ovation:::: thanks lady.   We love you, you know.   Cranky darn webmonkey.  

Haha! Jane! I didn't know that!  :) ::claps::

Hey Cali, though I hear what you're saying, and you're right, you need a full Weyr to fight Thread, in the 6 years (whoo hoo, yeah I saw the tailend of one implosion and lived through another!)  I've been here, we've always "assumed" the Weyrs are at full fighting strength.   Unless, like in DCW's case, they've had IC tragedies that definitely took away riders like O'dan (when Bree was eeeeeeeeeeeevil LOL) and the Hurricane.   Those are IC reasons to assume their strength is down.   Or like at DFW when we had no Hatchings for like... 12 months?! or longer?  

We just don't often talk about anybody but the PCs.   In fact, thats a common question about male greenriders.  We do assume there are way more male greenriders in the Weyrs than get talked about.  We seem to have a fetish here for female greenriders, though I'm seeing more and more of the male types as PCs yahoo!  :)

There isn't anything wrong with continuing that tradition.  Clearly a Weyr needs more than 90 dragons, so we assume they all do have more than 90.  We just don't talk about them... So...we take some... creative license? :)  Thats my story and Im stickin' to it ! :)

Side note, when I was WLM at DCW I wrote posts doing the "choosing of the Wings".   I did it with just the PC Wingleaders I had and the PC weyrlings I had and it seemed to work out fine.  At least I think it did :)  I'd be glad to help if you think I'd be useful :)

Just some food for your thought!

Quote from: "Jane":geek:  I'll admit to owning the sash that says 'Miss Kicked-Out-in-2000'.

And it looks so pretty with your hat!   :king:

Triad's never going to be perfect, and the Council is never going to be perfect.  But one thing I do want to emphasize is something Eimi said that might have gotten lost in the shuffle: the voice of 5 people or 10 people is not more important than the voice of 1.  But if you do really strongly feel that five or ten of you share an opinion...you have an option.  Do what the Council does.  Compose a letter together that you're all willing to stand behind, and sign it with your names.  

And remember something else: we can all disagree and fight and make faces at each other, but we're all (mostly) grown up too.  Which means when we're done making faces, fighting, and throwing stuff...we can get back to having a good time.  

 :cheers:

Do I get a sash too?  I got kicked out. :-D

I never intended my comments to be anything close to "omg teh Council sucks and you're all mean and I hate you!" But seconding Cali's post seemed to be taken as if it were a challenge, and I really did not appreciate the tone of the response ("if that's not good enough  ...")

Maybe the Council has been challenged and attacked so many times that they automatically put their guard up when someone disagrees. I didn't know that you couldn't disagree with the Council on the forums (especially in the sense of 'this was not the direction we intended our question to take'), and I think it's little hypocritical to publicly scold someone for not talking about an issue privately.

That being said, I think the Council does an amazing job. All the little details that go into running this club are mindblowing, and they do it all while dealing with real life, LOAs, technical problems, and on and on. I think that some of the problems that have been mentioned or hinted at are not because the Council is doing a BAD job, it's a perception issue. I'm not sure what can be done to ease that, because perception is a hard issue to address, especially over the internet.

I certainly don't think there should be a forum for "ganging up" on the Council, but maybe the regular members could discuss things on the forums in a preliminary way before formally asking the Council something? I think people have a need to feel more involved in the process. We understand it's not majority rules, the Council makes the final decision about what's best for the club. Since it's been years since there was a major problem and the club is going strong, I think that proves the Council is doing a damn fine job.

I wish I knew how to fix the perception issue.

Well spoken, Becki.  

I think part of the problem with the perception issue is that all this is written word.  There is no voice inflection, no body language to accompany it, so a lot can be read into it and a lot can be taken the wrong way.  This seems to happen often, not just here but in other venues as well.  I think it's good to remember that not everything said or done is a personal attack.

In December 2006 I emailed this suggestion to the Council:

QuoteA Suggestion: New Forum - Pern, Triad, Canon, Fanon & Opinion

Yeah, catchy title! <g>

My thought is that the forums have the Member Inquiries which are really
just questions for the council (well, council and L1) hence:

  viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1282 (http://triadweyrs.org/forumDuplicate/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1282)

which forbids others answering questions and this:

  viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2831 (http://triadweyrs.org/forumDuplicate/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2831)

which directs people _away_ from Triad to get general discussion the
council is too busy to deal with but warns that the responses might not
be applicable to this club.

I think the forums and the club would benefit from having an area where
discussion and questions can be dealt with in general by everybody.

Here's a classic example of one we all could have gnawed away at for
months but wasn't suitable for the Member Inquiries forum which is
asking for council response:

  viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2820 (http://triadweyrs.org/forumDuplicate/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2820)

A new forum (or more than one) would give me a place to ask about
showers v. baths.  Does the council really want to answer this for me?
And sewage?  I'm certainly interested and think it would encourage a
sense of community (and critical thinking) to discuss it while still
leaving the council the option of saying 'We'll lock this until we've
decided on it and let you know' or letting a discussion run and at the
end saying 'Xxx, could you write this up for the FAQ?'

Why send Triad people away to other websites when they can stay and
discuss Triad canon/fanon here, or canon or the books in general?

Right now we just have admin, posting, social, and awards sections on
the forums, but I think we need one covering canon - both Pern and Triad.


Jane
in NZ

I still think it has merit.  I like the idea of us chewing over fanon, canon, and vital questions about what each of us thinks the taps in the showers at RBW look like.

All right, I'm going to be honest with you guys right now.  Since this whole topic started, there hasn't been a single day when I haven't had to convince myself not to just walk away from this club for good.  Seriously, I have been this close every single day.  I am so tired of all of this.  I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on the Council feeling this way.  I tried to promise to do our job better.  It tried to make compromises for you guys.  And nothing I or the Council seems to be good enough.  This whole topic has felt like one wave of an attack after another, whether it was intended that way or not.  We've had to deal with it the same way no matter what the intentions behind it were, and I am exhausted.  You guys just don't know when enough is enough.  I am throwing up my hands with you guys, 'cause otherwise I am throwing in the towel.  I am just too tired of having to talk myself back off the ledge.

Emotions are running too high right now, especially on the battle-fatigued Council side.  Maybe we can revisit this idea in a couple months when things have calmed down, but for now, like it or not, this discussion is over.  You guys have two options - 1) you can go off into your respective corners and discuss who is going to form the Council for your own new club elsewhere, and you can go with our blessing and good wishes or 2) go back to coposting and enjoying this club as flawed and imperfect as it is and let us get back to doing our job.  

And Jane, if I weren't so pissed at the moment, I would probably be open to your idea, but I am just too touchy on this whole subject to give it the attention it deserves.  Ask again in a couple months.

Quote from: "Amanda N"Do I get a sash too?  I got kicked out. :-D

Of course! Sashes and crowns and beer all around!   :cheers:  :king:

I'd love to see this rest for a bit, for everyone's sake.  There comes a point where you are so sick of it there's no way to be rational.  If you guys want to continue thinking, I think y'all are internet savvy enough to find a way to discuss it without us setting up a place for you to do it.  After all, I'm pretty sure y'all know each other's e-mail addresses.  :)