We all know that there are various differences between Pern and earth. Certain things did not come over. However, what if you could choose one thing that is on earth to have come over to Pern? What would it be?
Me? CHOCOLATE!
Honestly, religion.
It just seems unrealistic that after how long on Pern? Humans would not come up with a religion. There has even been scientific evidence to support that some humans will naturally lean to the idea of a higher power.
With dragons and /between/ one would think that something would have arose out of the ashes, maybe even the idea that /between/ is that gate way to life after death, or that a deity placed certain special people in charge to guard Pern's most precious asset: Dragons. This would provide an explanation for some people why not everyone is not able to Impress.
Anne Mccaffrey later admitted to this error, which is why she wrote the short story "Beyond Between" and explains that she wrote it not only as a tribute to Moreta and Leri but because one thing that was taught was that "God is every where." Though I would not completely agree that the Pernese would become solely monotheistic (though it is very possible), I think a religion of some sort would have been created.
Quote from: "Amanda N"We all know that there are various differences between Pern and earth. Certain things did not come over. However, what if you could choose one thing that is on earth to have come over to Pern? What would it be?
Me? CHOCOLATE!
And yes, of course chocolate. Woman's best friend :D
Quote from: "Stasha"Anne Mccaffrey later admitted to this error, which is why she wrote the short story "Beyond Between" and explains that she wrote it not only as a tribute to Moreta and Leri but because one thing that was taught was that "God is every where." Though I would not completely agree that the Pernese would become solely monotheistic (though it is very possible), I think a religion of some sort would have been created.
I quite agree with you, Stasha. In fact, I'd probably add religion before chocolate (though I do love chocolate). I had no idea about that short story. I shall have to try and find it and read it!
I agree on both counts.
And after an extensive search, it appears that I'll be heading out to buy the anthology that contains Beyond Between, since I've neaver read taht.
That one would be an interesting read. And yeah, it is rather hard to write Pern without a religion sometimes, especially when it comes to an afterlife. I had always thought Faranth would have taken on a mythic, godlike quality.
Then again, in some of the later books, the dragons did seem rather godlike. I mean come on, flying in space?
But I would add something else which might seem rather weird, but still I wish Pern had it - newspapers. Especially now that they have firelizards that could carry new throughout Pern, and dragonriders that could carry it from Hold to Hold, why don't they write it in some printed form? You could get into such interesting storylines. Who controls the information? Where do they get the information about when Threadfall is happening? What would a Pernese gossip column read like? Could you imagine Weyrleaders and Lord Holders giving interviews to reporters that put a spin either for or against them into the paper? Can you imagine what sections your personas would read? It could be really fun.
Quote from: "Eimi"But I would add something else which might seem rather weird, but still I wish Pern had it - newspapers. Especially now that they have firelizards that could carry new throughout Pern, and dragonriders that could carry it from Hold to Hold, why don't they write it in some printed form?
Hmmm. . . I wonder how long after Emma reads this Thanja will be proposing just that?
Or maybe it would be her husband's idea. . .
Religion, yes. Newspapers, heck yes.
I would have really liked to see dialects and language shifts. The Pernese have drifted across an entire continent, and while travel on a dragon is easy, travel for everyone else is bloody hard! This means that a lot of Pernese are quite isolated, and it therefore stands to reason that dialects would have emerged. I'm sorry, but there just aren't enough Harpers to make sure that 'language remains pure' .. and anyway, there are enough Harper Halls to make that an issue too. It seemed like a cop-out for Anne, but at least she acknowledged it and addressed it a little when her people found AVIS.
The correlation to isolated communities and dialects is that a large population turns into 'us' and 'them' and there's the potential for warfare. Unpleasant, but humans tend to be greedy buggers.
I also want honeybees. :)
Dialects are a definite! I mean, look how different all our dialects are in the former colonies! Just a few hundred years seperated from England and you get completely different dialects - New Zealand, Australia, America, Canada, South Africa, the Carribean... Even within those countries in a few short generations the dialects have changed. Over thousands of years, it would unrecognizeable! I swear mass media may be the only thing that saves all our versions of English from losing a common root.
That would be kind of cool, I think!
Well my pet theory was always that the dragons were indeed the religion of Pern. Lets face it, people revere the dragons, and seem to think that they can don anything. And when you look at where our naughty words comes from... Well most are related to either sex or religion. They don't seem to have the same issues with sex on Pern, but their bad words or things that they swear by are dragon related.
So, I'm assuming that the printing press was not that successful? I had just arrived at the printing press in All The Weyrs of Pern when I misplaced the book on Saturday. I still haven't been able to find it :(
If I could have anything on Pern, it would probably be the modern pen, though chocolate is a close second.
Chocolate is way better than pens! You can't eat pens. ;-)
Quote from: "Eimi"... but still I wish Pern had it - newspapers.
No reason for Triad not to have newspapers with the 1200 Turn gap.
Next thing you know, they'll have radio, then television! :compress:
Quote from: "Amanda N"Next thing you know, they'll have radio, then television! :compress:
They have electricity, which in our history was predated by newspapers.
But, this is not my campaign. Riverboats are enough for me!
Hey, I think the riverboats are cool!
Quote from: "Eimi"Dialects are a definite! I mean, look how different all our dialects are in the former colonies! Just a few hundred years seperated from England and you get completely different dialects - New Zealand, Australia, America, Canada, South Africa, the Carribean... Even within those countries in a few short generations the dialects have changed. Over thousands of years, it would unrecognizeable! I swear mass media may be the only thing that saves all our versions of English from losing a common root.
Now, is it out of cannon to suspect that there are different accents on Pern? I would find it impossible to believe that accents do not exist. You would think some one from Telgar sounds different from some in Nerat, to some one in Fort, etc... Much like American English is different from ENGLISH English which is different from Australian English, etc...
I would say that there must be different accents. I want to even say that something akin to that was mention in one of the books, but as some people who played with me when I joined Pern Shadows will remember, my memory really isn't very good.
Regardless, I would think that accents would exist as well as certain colloquialism that would be used more in some places than others. I mean, I was reading a post where someone (might have been Fog) referred to his father as Dar. Amish often say Datt. I have a friend whose son calls him Poppi (he lives in the North) and another friend who lives down here in the south whose son calls his father Papa, where as many other people call their fathers dad or daddy. I know that Nana seems to be a popular term for grandmother with my Northern born friends and family where as in the South I hear more 'grandma' and 'grammy'.
It's "grandma" mostly in Washington I think... At least that's what I always called mine ;) I never had a pet name for them.
And I think that you could certainly tell someone from the country from someone in the city on Pern, but AM had originally wanted it to be pretty much standardized. But I'm sure there are slight accents between places, especially between the North and South. And there would be different terms for things between places (Weyrs have fostermothers, Holds have nursery workers maybe) and your craft would determine a lot too (a weaver might say "He doesn't have enough thread to make a bolt" to mean someone's not quite all there, and a sailor might say "he doesn't have all his sails up" or something...)
My children call my MIL Nana. Kat couldn't pronounce grandma so called my mother 'Mima' (mee-muh). :-D
Oh, and I think the reason Pern DOESN'T have newspapers is the cost of paper... That was my take on it...
Quote from: "Eimi"Oh, and I think the reason Pern DOESN'T have newspapers is the cost of paper... That was my take on it...
Ahh, but they have romance novels.
Isn't paper cheaper and more readily available now?
I call my grandparents Abuelos, so I don't think my dialect opinion counts here ;)
As far as Pern goes though, if Anne Mccaffrey wanted to create a believable society, one that others could relate to, I think dialect and religion were two things that she over looked. A great error on her part if you ask me, because her readers had to be very tolerable of these flaws.
Another thing is society conflicts. I guess that is why I liked so much about DragonFlight, because it had this. Fax was a man that craved power and did what many human historical figures on earth attempted to do, usurp the current leader by any means necessary. Fax even used genocide. Genocide! It is not a pretty picture, but again the Pernese are human and it is not far fetched that they would do this. What is hard for me to believe is that during those long intervals nothing would have happened, especially when Pern is made up of humans.
Oh, and don't get me started on the male blue and green riders. If you want a good argument/ theory regarding Impression (which covers the issue of homosexuality and dragons) read this (http://www.dragonchoice.com/theory/index.htm) essay. It is one of the best presentations of the theory of Impression that I have ever seen :)
All of these were some of the hardest things I had to swallow when I did read the Pern stories. She created a great concept, but it seemed like AM was trying to remove some very human aspects of her world that she just did not like at the time. Everyone wants something of the world to be different, but any society created by humans is just that: Human. Sorry but "it's my world and I can do what I want" is never an excuse when attempting to write a society (especially when claiming that your stories are Science Fiction) unless you are purposely attempting to make your world two dimensional.
The only thing that has held my fascination for the world of Pern for so long is that idea, the concept of the dragons and their riders. To bond with another mind with the strength and dedication that she describes. This concept is one of her strongest creations in the world of Pern.
Yeah I think I remember reading that she said Pern didn't have war, but that's what Fax pretty much did - wage war. It may not have been on the scale we think of, or in the matter we think of, but it was still war.
I am in complete agreement on the dialects idea. My linguistic anthropology professor told us that in Nepal, a society where people walk between most towns and cities and with only some electricity, etc, very agricultural, not exposed to the modern world, that there's such dialectal variance that many villagers can't understand Standard Nepali and vice versa. If that can occurr in a single country, across an entire planet, even with dragonriders and Harpers, it should be impossible to not have not only accents, but regional dialects that probably are difficult for those to understand by those not of that region.
I'd imagine it might be Weyr-based: i.e. since Weyrs cover Holds within a certain geographical region, and dialects tend to stay in a certain region, then all of RBW's Holds might have dialect A, while DCW's might have dialect B. Perhaps dragonriders, who can have frequent inter-Weyr and inter-Hold contact by virtue of message-running, etc (as well as Harpers) speak a "standard" version of the language, or a refined upper-class type version, so that all riders from all Weyrs can always communicate. But you should always be able to tell where someone comes from by accent.
And if there's accent and dialect, there must also be cultural variation. England's culture is different from Canada's is different from America's is different from Australia's- and that's just a few English-speaking countries! Don't tell me that Holds, who tend to contact themselves, their minor holds and cotholds, and their Weyr (sometimes) as well as neighboring Holds (for trade and on occasion), don't develop separate cultures. In fact, they're far more likely to given the absence of a homogenizing factor such as mass media. At the very least, traditions should spring up in some that seem completely foreign to those of others, and someone who has moved to a new Hold might commit multiple social faux pas before adapting to the new lifestyle.
I think Triad kind of does this with its Holds, and I wish we explored that more. AHH takes the female craft ban and woman as mother and alliance-maker far stronger than does the other Holds, which has shocked the ACH people, for example. EFH is dealing with the effects of liberalizing. I imagine there are probably many other practices that vary strongly between Holds like this.
Another thing I think was left out is lesbians. We have gay men, but not gay women? Seriously? I find that incredibly unlikely. Maybe they don't Impress (although personally, I think at least bisexual women should be able to Impress green), but they must exist somewhere!
And, about the newspapers idea, I don't see why we can't have them? Sure, paper is expensive, but newspaper tends to be a cheaper easier to produce kind than computer or photo paper. Maybe the Printers discover a way to make a new paper that can still be printed on and is strong enough to survive a reading or two, but isn't high-quality and can be cheaply produced. Maybe if not to everywhere, they could print a few copies each to go to main areas (our Weyrs and Major Holds) that can be circulated about. Maybe the Weyrharper or Hold Harper could be in charge of reading them at a certain time that way everyone gets the news. Something like that.
Quote from: "Avril"And, about the newspapers idea, I don't see why we can't have them? Sure, paper is expensive, but newspaper tends to be a cheaper easier to produce kind than computer or photo paper.
I always pictured the ubiquitous romance novels in Pern as penny dreadfuls - cheaply printed with cheap in on cheap paper and liable to fall apart after a reading or two. Something that could be bought en-masse by a merchant and sold for two-eighths of a mark at Gathers. Which is why Thalia has her favourites rebound in leather so that they'll last longer. :P
Jane has a female character who is gay, Avril. :)
Quote from: "Amanda N"Jane has a female character who is gay, Avril. :)
Yep, I know. I was referring to canon when I said that.
ah, I see. :)
On the newspaper thing, wasn't that why the printer hall was created during the ninth pass? I should read up again, it's been a while.
I think trying to take a logical, consistent canon from Anne's books is a fairly hopeless task!
I liked that article you referenced, Stasha. Mostly because it fits pretty much with my views! :laughing5:
Dido for me. It was so well presented, and she has a lot of supporting evidence as to why AM's view on homosexuality and dragonriders is severally flawed. Also, the evidence as to why certain people Impress certain kinds of dragons was also very well written, and the section on why dragons Impress from the stands.
I read it as well Stasha and I must say I agree. Very good reading. I'm going to have my husband read it too. :)
I actually kind of wish that Triad changed that little detail, but I doubt that will ever happen. Oh well. I can make do.
Quote from: "Stasha"I actually kind of wish that Triad changed that little detail, but I doubt that will ever happen. Oh well. I can make do.
Which little detail?
The whole what dragons Impress. It's one of those things that doesn't make real sense.
Do you mind going into more detail Stasha?
Quote from: "Stasha"The whole what dragons Impress. It's one of those things that doesn't make real sense.
I'm comfortable with the Renewable Air Force style rules; that's what was in vogue when I joined Fandom and I've been writing in conservative clubs ever since. Triad is the first one I've been in that doesn't have the 'stand ins' from Anne's letter, but that's a minor.
Stand ins? I think I need to read the letter.
Quote from: "Amanda N"Stand ins? I think I need to read the letter.
You got a link? Cibryen has it.
I think Anne just wasn't ready for her lovely F'lar to be having sex with other men. :laughing5:
To give her credit, in the early 70s she was trying to be fair and progressive, but she's still very much a woman of her times.
Quote from: "Amanda N"Do you mind going into more detail Stasha?
That essay actually sums it up.
There's also a few psychological views as well that don't add up as well. Like how there were not nearly enough homosexuals (who also have to be empathetic and/or telepathic/ this is not including bisexuals) to Impress all those greens during the era when women only Impressed Golds. Greens make up 50% of the dragon race and homosexuals (excluding bisexual) make up only 2% of sexual preferences.
Luckily, however, The Triads have girls to make up for the large gaping difference, or else the dragon race would really be in trouble.
Quote from: "Stasha"Luckily, however, The Triads have girls to make up for the large gaping difference, or else the dragon race would really be in trouble.
That's why I really liked the bit about weyrbred / Impression / and flight sex not equalling sexual preference. We're cool with that latter idea for bronze and brownriders at Triad, but not for blue and greenriders.
Oh I see. Sorry, my brain doesn't always think clearly. :)
The whole tent peg thing...*shakes head*
well, I don't really miss religion on Pern, being agnostic myself but I do agree on dialects and war.
Even a small country like Finland has several different accents/dialects, based on wich part of the country you come from. And when I were in England, I had troubles understanding some of the locals. Londoners werent't problem, but the Manchester accent... (if I remember correctly)
Don't feel bad, Paula, I STILL can't understand some of the English accents ;)
Then again, sometimes I can't understand some of the American either... Which sucks since everyone can understand me since I speak Standard Broadcast American English :P
I grew up watching British Television, so I can probably understand more than some people. :)
Scotts are my favorite. I went on a missions trip to Scotland in 2002 and picked up the accent within three or four days.
I pick up accents very easily. I used to do tech support by phone and whenever I got a caller with an accent, I'd find myself falling into it!
Quote from: "Paula"well, I don't really miss religion on Pern, being agnostic myself but I do agree on dialects and war.
Even a small country like Finland has several different accents/dialects, based on wich part of the country you come from. And when I were in England, I had troubles understanding some of the locals. Londoners werent't problem, but the Manchester accent... (if I remember correctly)
Well, I may live in Manchester, but I don't have the local accent (sorry to dissapoint, I do not sound like a character from Coronation Street!). I have a Yorkshire accent (like in Emmerdale), and I can do a fair imitation of a Bristolian after spending 7 years down there.
But there should be accents on Pern. Scousers (Liverpool) sound completely different to Manchester and there is less than 40 miles between the two cities, so it follows that it should be the same on Pern.
Hey, could we make up our own accents? *G*
New Zealand has very little (next to nothing) in the way of dialect or regional accent but we're a young country with a very small population.
How young is young?
Quote from: "Amanda N"How young is young?
The English language really got established here about the 1850s. (There was small scale settlement before that, but not very big.) So, 160 years young, I guess.
That's younger than the US. :)
Well, you have older settlement bits and younger, don't you? The eastern side being older, the western side being younger? We're more like the Pacific coast, that's all.
Yeah, something like that. It just doesn't seem like it I guess. :) I'd love to visit NZ and Australia some day. And the UK...and many other countries!
Quote from: "Amanda N"Hey, could we make up our own accents? *G*
Having written with partners who try to write in dialects/accents, I'll admit that if you try it, I'll skip over your posts without reading them. Sometimes we need to sacrifice authenticity for readability.
Quote from: "Jane"Well, you have older settlement bits and younger, don't you? The eastern side being older, the western side being younger? We're more like the Pacific coast, that's all.
Yeah, the Oregon Trail really opened up and pioneers started moving to the West Coast in 1841. Of course, the Spanish had been in some of the areas of Southwestern America, especially California, for a long time before that. But the Pacific Northwest really wasn't "settled" until the Oregon Trail.
Quote from: "Vix"Having written with partners who try to write in dialects/accents, I'll admit that if you try it, I'll skip over your posts without reading them. Sometimes we need to sacrifice authenticity for readability.
I'll take that as a 'no'. :)
I understand Vix. I shall refrain!
Although, I do seem to remember a few posts in the past concerning some Northern born personas were the Southern born personas they were talking with mentioned that there was something in the way they talked that made them think they might not be from the South. And also a "look" which was a bit more Northern. So I think you can get away with a slight accent, but its kind of like an American listening to a Canadian. You can hear there's a slight difference but you just can't quite place it kind of thing maybe.
I have a friend from Canada. She doesn't have an accent to me at all, eh? :)
Quote from: "Amanda N"I have a friend from Canada. She doesn't have an accent to me at all, eh? :)
The one word that always allowed me to weed on the Canadians was when they used the word "washroom" instead of restroom or bathroom. It's amazing that even little words like that can indicate some one's nationality. The Canadians always laugh when I point it out :D
Actually, I use bathroom most of the time, but I have used washroom occasionally. I picked that up with I went to school in Illinois. :)
Quote from: "Stasha"The one word that always allowed me to weed on the Canadians was when they used the word "washroom" instead of restroom or bathroom. It's amazing that even little words like that can indicate some one's nationality. The Canadians always laugh when I point it out :D
And that weird thing with North American folks ... asking about the bathroom when they really want the toilet! :geek:
The two words that give it away for me are "sorry" (pronounced 'soar-ry') and "about" (prounced 'a-boat'). Oh, and if they say 'eh' and 'hoser' and talk about hockey a lot while drinking LaBatt Blue ;)
Toire!
Quote from: "Jane"Quote from: "Stasha"The one word that always allowed me to weed on the Canadians was when they used the word "washroom" instead of restroom or bathroom. It's amazing that even little words like that can indicate some one's nationality. The Canadians always laugh when I point it out :D
And that weird thing with North American folks ... asking about the bathroom when they really want the toilet! :geek:
I always loved "the lu"
I know I'm spelling that wrong, but still it's the best. "May I use your lu?"
loo?
I wonder where that term originated. Hm.
Quote from: "Amanda N"loo?
I wonder where that term originated. Hm.
Thanks for the correction. I know my spelling can be pretty ugly.
My family was laughing at me for picking up all these other English phrases while I've been here. Now I always say "toilet" instead of bathroom. "I have to go to the toilet before we go"... That I picked up from the Japanese though.
Otearai? :)
Quote from: "Eimi"My family was laughing at me for picking up all these other English phrases while I've been here. Now I always say "toilet" instead of bathroom. "I have to go to the toilet before we go"... That I picked up from the Japanese though.
"I have to go to the toilet"
I don't know, I could never say that. It sounds so crude to me and I have no idea why...
LOL. I have to admit, when I first learned that, I found it strange myself. :)
Quote from: "Amanda N"Otearai? :)
Yeah, but "otearai" mean "wash my hands". Its the same as saying "powder my nose" XD "toire iku" or "toire iru" is a bit more direct.
Yeah, "toilet" was pretty crude to me at first too. But I've gotten used to it. Could be worse. Could be the "crapper"...
Or "I have to take a piss"
I hate that, especially when guys say that.
It'd be better if they said "Can I use your washroom?"
LOL!
I was taught both otearai and toire. :)
Quote from: "Stasha"Or "I have to take a piss"
I hate that, especially when guys say that.
It'd be better if they said "Can I use your washroom?"
If they want to use my washroom or bathroom for pissing in, then there's going to be trouble. Big trouble!
I learned "otearai" myself in Japanese class. I wonder why some of us lerned it different?
Quote from: "Avril"I learned "otearai" myself in Japanese class. I wonder why some of us lerned it different?
I'm not sure, Avril. I learned both, but was taught that toire was more common. It was never explained to me that otearai was more of a 'powder my nose' type thing. :} We'd probably pick up on the subtle differences if we actually lived in Japan like Eimi. :)
Quote from: "Jane"Quote from: "Stasha"Or "I have to take a piss"
I hate that, especially when guys say that.
It'd be better if they said "Can I use your washroom?"
If they want to use my washroom or bathroom for pissing in, then there's going to be trouble. Big trouble!
Oh, I understand, I understand far too well :)
Fortunately, my husband doesn't use that type of language. If he did, he'd get smacked for it. :-D
Quote from: "Amanda N"Fortunately, my husband doesn't use that type of language. If he did, he'd get smacked for it. :-D
I have a lot of friends that are guys, so I hear it all the time *rolls eyes*
Men...
Quote from: "Amanda N"Quote from: "Avril"I learned "otearai" myself in Japanese class. I wonder why some of us lerned it different?
I'm not sure, Avril. I learned both, but was taught that toire was more common. It was never explained to me that otearai was more of a 'powder my nose' type thing. :} We'd probably pick up on the subtle differences if we actually lived in Japan like Eimi. :)
Well, its the same learning any language, I think. They teach the polite language first, the more "base", everyday language comes later. That's why everyone in Japan can say "How are you?" "I'm fine thank you, and you?" But they're lost if I ask "How's it going" or "What's up".
What's uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup?
Wasaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabi?
Sorry...old commercials coming to mind. :)
Oh trust me, I remember ;) We still pull that one up every once in a while... Of course the Japanese friends don't get it XD
No, but we probably don't get most of the Japanese commercials. :-D
You know what I saw once (almost completely off the topic).
It was a Japanese show called "Human Tetris"
The title explains it all, and it was hilarious :laughing2:
There are some really weird and freaky shows that are produced in Japan.
Not that the US produces that many great ones. :)
OMG yes... I had a lot of fun disturbing my brothers with the comedian Razor Ramon videos on Youtube (aka Hard Gay). Hilarious and yet very very disturbing...
I'm going to have to look those up! Kurt sends me videos from time to time of snippets from strange shows. :)
Quote from: "Stasha"Quote from: "Jane"Quote from: "Stasha"Or "I have to take a piss"
I hate that, especially when guys say that.
It'd be better if they said "Can I use your washroom?"
If they want to use my washroom or bathroom for pissing in, then there's going to be trouble. Big trouble!
Oh, I understand, I understand far too well :)
Trust me you don't want to hear some of the cruder phrases around here for bodily functions then ;)
I've probably heard them on the telly. :)
Quote from: "emma"Quote from: "Stasha"Quote from: "Jane"Quote from: "Stasha"Or "I have to take a piss"
I hate that, especially when guys say that.
It'd be better if they said "Can I use your washroom?"
If they want to use my washroom or bathroom for pissing in, then there's going to be trouble. Big trouble!
Oh, I understand, I understand far too well :)
Trust me you don't want to hear some of the cruder phrases around here for bodily functions then ;)
Oh, I'm pretty sure I've heard them all. I'm just too polite to say them :)
I even shuttered to mention that last one, but it was only to make a point.
Yeah, right, Stasha. You just wanted to write it. :-p
Quote from: "Amanda N"Yeah, right, Stasha. You just wanted to write it. :-p
that's right, it's all about the marks ;)
Quote from: "Stasha"that's right, it's all about the marks ;)
I think you wanted more shock value than anything. :-p
Quote from: "Amanda N"Quote from: "Stasha"that's right, it's all about the marks ;)
I think you wanted more shock value than anything. :-p
If I wanted to do something with "shocking value" trust me, I would have been a lot worse :D
Quote from: "Stasha"Quote from: "Amanda N"If I wanted to do something with "shocking value" trust me, I would have been a lot worse :D
See, now I want to know!