How prevalent would fiction writing be in Pern? I mean, I know that songs and ballads were used for teaching and keeping histories alive and all, but what about storytelling? On Earth, fiction writing has been a staple pretty much since people first figured out how to write, though often only religious sects and the very rich had the education to do it.
On Pern, I imagine it would be a bit better than that, as far as the literacy aspect goes, so it might be more of a 'who has access to materials' thing. But, the harpers and higher ranked holders and so forth shouldn't have any problems writing stories if they wanted to, especially once paper-making and typesetting became a thing.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is how normal a thing should I consider fictional stories in Pern and assuming that it's something fairly normal, where would collections of said stories be usually? Would each Hold have a library that would have different rules about usage depending on the Hold, or would the local Harper keep any stories/poems/songs in their private area and you'd have to go through them? What about in Weyrs? I'd assume Harper Hall would have a large collection of books and scrolls but would it be considered a private collection or would it be made public (within reason).
What about non-fiction writing?
Fiction and non-fiction writing would both fall under the Harper category. You would have writings for both, and since we're 10th Pass, there's printing involved as well, so some things would be published that way as well.
So, like would there be libraries? Or something like libraries?
Quote from: AmajoS on October 27, 2018, 10:16:34 PM
So, like would there be libraries? Or something like libraries?
Hmm, my personal thoughts would be no, because I would assume, while there is printing of books, it's probably not in the mass quantities that we experience and so they'd probably be costly? ((Triad Veterans, feel free to correct that :glasses )) I think most people would get books by purchasing from traders/caravans, or sharing between themselves. Books are probably something sold at a vendor's stall at Gathers as well, but I don't know that there would be a collection of them anywhere to check out.... **Maybe** at the Harper's Hall?
That's just my musings on the matter.
Corowal likes to read, so he has his own collection of books, a private library, if you want to say so. I say there are no public libraries per rule but people do pass around books. They would be considered luxuries, so not every cotholder has ones. Halls/Holds/Weyrs may also store books in their archieves. If you can borrow them, that would be up to the harper responsible for that archieve (or the Hold's general policy).
That's kind of what I was thinking Paula, something like that.
Part of the stories I've put together for one of my characters (Sophque) is that she loves books and one of the things that contributed to her life was her access to Lord Morin's library.
She's also struggled with being able to borrow them from the Harpers in the past because they wanted her husband's permission first.
So I've kind of written around this subject for a while. I believe and have discussed this much with Eimi, that there are a sort of lending library overseen by harpers but that sometimes Traders have them as well.
A gift of a book would be a big deal, but as we're RP'ing this in the time frame of 1800's technology, there would be books, they would be available. Though not in the easy way they are today.
Teseada likes the Pernese equivalent of chick-lit, but as the Weyrwoman's 2nd, she's going to have more access to get at books than some. She would lend the trashier ones to friends at DFW for a giggle
There have been posts were U'kaiah has taken different people on tours of the archives and finding them fiction and non-fiction books to read (since he's an archivist). I think in Major Holds and Weyrs they would have extensive libraries and probably even store rooms of documents and books not being circulated. Smaller Holders would probably not have quite as much of a selection, but would have their own records and local stories. And probably some Holds and Holders dedicate more of their time and funds to others, so collections might come in fits and starts.
That's my image at least!
I have a follow-up question. Who would be the authors of fiction on Pern? Would it mainly be harpers, or could anyone write a book...I suppose they could with enough spare time and access to materials, but how would they get it "published"?
So if you've written your romance novel, would you submit to the harpers in the hope of getting it printed? And does some poor harper have the job of reading them all?
Pretty much the harpers, since the printer's hall is the only way to get them printed and published.
Quote from: Estelle on November 05, 2018, 05:02:11 PM
I have a follow-up question. Who would be the authors of fiction on Pern? Would it mainly be harpers, or could anyone write a book...I suppose they could with enough spare time and access to materials, but how would they get it "published"?
So if you've written your romance novel, would you submit to the harpers in the hope of getting it printed? And does some poor harper have the job of reading them all?
I'm imagining mainly just harpers because other folks wouldn't have the time to write a novel with their "real life" duties. I imagine some of the women who are just "Hold residents" might have more time but in the South female authors probably would not have been given a chance with the way females are not allowed to craft (unless they are a harper.)
Now I want to make a female hold resident who writes serial short stories under a pseudonym with the clandestine help of a young harper journeyman. lol
I would say that it would be very possible that there might be those on Pern who write as a hobby in their free time, in their retirement, on those cold winter nights. There is a chance that some of that writing could find it's way into the hands of their local Harper who finds it worthy of passing it along to someone who might print it.
I could also see some rich man's son (or daughter) getting the printers to print out copies on their own dime, so to speak.
But I think that these would be rare cases and the chances of that person becoming famous in their own lifetime would be slim. Just my two cents.
Quote from: AmajoS on November 07, 2018, 11:27:49 PM
Now I want to make a female hold resident who writes serial short stories under a pseudonym with the clandestine help of a young harper journeyman. lol
Oh wow, what a great idea! I'd love to read that storyline. :)
Another thing I wondered, would there just be one main, large printing press in the printer hall, or would large Holds have their own smaller ones, run by printers assigned to that location?
I mean, depending on what kind it is, a printing press with movable type, able to do one page at a time could fit in a Hold easy. A big 'industrial' sized printer capable of doing multiple pages or producing them on an automatic feed or something for mass production, might need to be housed in it's own large facility at a Hall. But, a Hold where the Lord Holder or someone in their family, or just a wealthy crafter even, wanted a small one available shouldn't have any problem fitting one in. I imagine the expense would be the limiting factor. But, once one was in the Hold, for whatever reason, anyone with something to print could 'hire' it or something, I would think, depending on the rules at the Hold.
Of course, I'm just guessing based on what makes sense to me. Council folks would know better.
But here's a wikipedia link about printing presses and look at the size of the recreated Gutenburg Press next to the size of the dude standing by it. Not very huge, really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press
Quote from: Estelle on November 09, 2018, 12:22:45 AM
Quote from: AmajoS on November 07, 2018, 11:27:49 PM
Now I want to make a female hold resident who writes serial short stories under a pseudonym with the clandestine help of a young harper journeyman. lol
Oh wow, what a great idea! I'd love to read that storyline. :)
Another thing I wondered, would there just be one main, large printing press in the printer hall, or would large Holds have their own smaller ones, run by printers assigned to that location?
Well, if we're basing our 10th pass technology off of medieval technology, this is a link to a medieval paper press. https://medievalfreiburg.sites.stanford.edu/medieval-papermaking-printing
(https://medievalfreiburg.sites.stanford.edu/medieval-papermaking-printing)
You can see it's quite large, so I'm not sure it would be considered a necessity for Holds- especially since hides (it seems) are easier to come by and generally used more than making paper.
This would leave me to believe that only the harpers at the printer hall would have the time, or materials, to make paper and then go through the printing process. I'm not thinking there would be much need to print at the Hold? I just imagine the Hold being no nonsense and only investing in items that provide profit to the Hold, provide shelter, clothing, etc.
But why would the whole to be necessarily no-nonsense? I mean, the only difference between Pern society and Earth at that time, besides customs, is Thread. But they have established means of dealing with Thread. Dragons and so on. And, to be honest, thread would only be an issue for holds on days it fell. But, Lord Holders are basically the same as medieval kings and the holders of small holds within their territory like land gentry. I'm not suggesting that Bob The Pernese Farmer would have one, but the Lord of the Hold's grandfather who loved books but disliked having to wait for the Printer Hall's pleasure in delivering them might have had one set up in the Hold.
Also, the press in the picture in your link is the same in the one I shared, I think. It's not so big. The whole paper making set up is, but paper could be purchased.
Quote from: AmajoS on November 10, 2018, 02:23:38 AM
But why would the whole to be necessarily no-nonsense? I mean, the only difference between Pern society and Earth at that time, besides customs, is Thread. But they have established means of dealing with Thread. Dragons and so on. And, to be honest, thread would only be an issue for holds on days it fell. But, Lord Holders are basically the same as medieval kings and the holders of small holds within their territory like land gentry. I'm not suggesting that Bob The Pernese Farmer would have one, but the Lord of the Hold's grandfather who loved books but disliked having to wait for the Printer Hall's pleasure in delivering them might have had one set up in the Hold.
Also, the press in the picture in your link is the same in the one I shared, I think. It's not so big. The whole paper making set up is, but paper could be purchased.
I guess when I say "no nonsense" I'm really saying.... What would the Holders need to print that would necessitate having a printing press in the Hold? I can't see a Lord Holder spending money on buying/up-keeping a printing press, and paying for the journeyman to work it, just for a few pieces of fiction. If a Holder has enough money to buy a printing press just to print himself a few books, then he has the money to have it delivered from the Printing Hall quickly, yes? ;) All relevant information about traditions and such are passed down via harper education with teaching songs, so there wouldn't be a need for those to be mass printed because I'm sure they've already been copied down and added to the archives.
But I mean, I can only speak for Zathris, Paula might have more insight on if Corowal would order a printing press to be at EFH :)
I get it, and like I said it's just my opinion based on what makes sense to me, I'm not on the council or anything so I hold no sway. LOL
So let's take this conversation toward ROI or "Return on Investment." In today's world so very many things are technologically made that we've lost the native understanding of the days when everything had to be handcrafted and far more expensive as a portion of a personal income as a result.
One printing press = a huge investment for the Lord Holder. Sure it could be set up in a small space and used by a single individual printing one book at a time but that is a waste of resources. The machine is handcrafted = expensive, and too expensive to be left idle. So unless there is a huge demand for books it is unlikely the Holder would invest in such a setup. It would be far more cost effective to have someone copy it more like a scribe. But that isn't a NEW book that is one that already exists at the Hold.
One printing press printing the same page multiple times is far more efficient and cost-effective. Let alone the training of the printer. (Printer Hall) Thus distribution via printer hall or trader.
I think about how long it takes me to knit a single pair of socks. It's no wonder that people had one or two pairs at a time and wore them out before they got a new pair. Honestly, it's far easier to go to the store. Reflecting on Dragonflight and the tapestry that hung at Ruatha for hundreds of Turns. That single piece must have taken many many years of work by multiple Masters to make.
So, it's not that it isn't possible but more that is highly unlikely to happen outside the printer hall or a large printer presence at a hold.
Corowal has harper/printer hall on his territory, why would he need a press of his own?
All right, since it's pretty much decided that individual holds would not have their own printing press, then how would access to the printer at the craft Hall go? Would printing priority be given to certain people like crafters and Lord Holders or would it be on a first-come first-serve basis? Would everything that gets printed need to be approved before hand? How hard would it be to slip a run of a few hundred copies of something into the printer queue? Just for example.
At the risk of jumping in on a closed subject... :)
I recently saw the film
Peterloo (worth seeing if you can) and in that there's a scene where a character is printing pages on a press that looks like the ones AmajoS and Heather posted, but smaller and operated by one person in a small business. Now, I am far from an expert *g* and I'm certainly not going to claim that it would be
easy to make one, but it did look like something a skilled carpenter or smith might be able to construct without it being impossibly expensive...correct me if I'm wrong about that though!
In this article (https://printinghistory.org/mit-students-build-a-common-press/), a class of students make one (although they do have modern tools, and order the screw from a woodworking company).
Maybe it would be possible, if unusual, for a rich holder who loved books (or technology) to hire a printer and set up a press? After all, wealthy people have been known to spend money on far less "useful" things (jewellery, fine clothes, artworks, fancy runners...) - at least this might make some return. :) Particularly if they were far enough from the main printer hall to get some local business.
Or a master printer might want to set up in a new location away from the hall, to grow the craft, and find a like-minded holder to host them?
However, other thoughts I had relating to printing on Earth vs Pern were:
- The Pernese had help from Aivas, so possibly they would have skipped the small Gutenberg-type press stage and gone straight on to larger and more complex presses which would only make sense in a printer hall?
- It seems like a lot of the material printed on Earth historically related to religion or politics, neither of which seem to be a factor on Pern, so for that reason there may not be so much demand. Possibly if they were near a different crafthall, there could be printing of texts on farming, smithing, etc. or even Threadfall charts?
- I'm not sure what the attitude of the printer craft would be to small presses outside the Hall, if there were any. Would they encourage it, or want to keep a monopoly?
- Maybe getting paper is more difficult on Pern, if it has to come from forests which need to be protected against Thread, although this wouldn't have been a problem until the Pass began.
It's a really interesting topic to think about!
I think it is not outside the realm of possibility that a Hold might have a printing press lying around in their basement somewhere, even if currently they don't have much need. Depending on how old a Hold is, just think of the layers of history buried in their vaults, so to speak. There may have been a Lord Holder hundreds of years back in love with the printed word and determined to make it available to his people. Or perhaps there had been a fad of Lord Holders having a printing press whether they needed one or not just to show off to the other Lord Holders, since it would definitely cost a pretty penny.
What printing can be used for now? Plenty of things! For example, maybe Devrin decides he needs to clean inventory in his shop and wants to have a sale. He might not be able to afford to pass fliers out on the street or anything, but he might be able to make a few to post in strategic places. A new ship might advertise for a new crew. Blue prints, schematics, technical instructions might need to be printed rather than hand copied by a Harper. Maybe a craftsman at a Hold is working on a breakthrough and wants to share it with others in the same Craft. What about a local farmer's almanac? I think if you look at what presses have been used for over the centuries, they have been useful for far more than just printing books. I think a press in any Hold would be used.
But I do think that only printers would have the technical expertise to really be able to operate them efficiently. It wouldn't be like the Hold's copy machine available for everyone to use. The paper, ink, type faces, type setting, drying, etc. would all take some real specialized know how.
That's what I think anyway.
Well, most craft halls would might want to print material for their apprentices so they'll all have the same study material. I could see technicians hall and smith craft hall have the knowledge to at leat build the press, if not operate it.
I suppose printers could be commissioned to holds and other halls the way any other crafters. So, if the tech hall builds a printing machine for their own need, they'll just hire/contract printer from Printer Hall.
(there's a craft that needs lot of blueprints etc which would be too time consuming to copy manually in large quantities). So, if a Lord Holder _wants_ a press of his own, there's way to get if he has the marks.
So, it's possible for a large Hold or major hall to have a printer of their own.